A New Kind of School Supply: Firearms
Guns in high schools: what could possibly go wrong? Well, as the Mail Tribune reports, it's a combination that could become a lot more common in Oregon, thanks to a Jackson County lawsuit:
A high school teacher wanting to carry a gun on campus is fueling a challenge against a Medford School District policy that prohibits possession of a weapon on school grounds.Portland-based lawyer Jim Leuenberger, with backing from the Oregon Firearms Federation, said in an e-mail sent Friday to the Mail Tribune that he intends to ask a Jackson County Circuit Court judge to declare the policy "illegal and void" for holders of concealed handgun licences.
"There is a state statute that prohibits local governments — including school boards — from restricting possession of firearms by concealed firearm permit holders," Leuenberger said. "The state statute says any such local restrictions are void."
No doubt the legislature had this specific situation in mind when they passed the law. After all, why shouldn't teachers carry firearms to class?
"It's a loophole kind of a thing really," said School Board Chairman Mike Moran, a retired lieutenant with the Medford Police Department. "If they have a concealed weapons permit it seems to grant a privilege that I don't think the Legislature intended."Moran said he also had concerns the firearm could fall into the hands of a student.
"Even if it's a totally legitimate person with a legitimate permit — can you adequately guarantee that it will not fall into the hands of a student?" Moran asked. "You can't."
Long said he worried about what would happen if a crisis broke out on campus, and someone other than law enforcement officers was in possession of a gun.
Crisis plans worked out with local law enforcement agencies are "predicated on the idea that if there's someone on our campus and they have a weapon, they're not supposed to be there," Long said. "The law enforcement people would act appropriately."
Having a permit is no measure of competency either:
"You can be an undiagnosed psychotic or you could be a criminal, a serial killer even, who just hasn't been caught and you can come onto our property with a concealed weapon and we can't do much about it," Moran said."A concealed weapons permit is very easily obtained," added Gerking. "It's cheap and you don't have to show much. All you have to do is show that you've got the money to pay for it and you're not a felon."
Moran said he hoped the three-month legislative session that is set to begin in January could bring some resolution to this issue.
However, the issue isn't exactly new to Oregon. Legislators have made several attempts to close the loophole, with no success:
The Oregon Firearms Federation has been fighting with the state and its school districts since 2001, when it lobbied against Senate Bill 508. The bill would have given school districts the authority to regulate firearms, even if the gun owner has a permit.Another legislative attempt to keep guns out of schools surfaced in 2005.
"The bill never got out of committee and died the ignominious death it so richly deserved," the firearms federation said in an editorial on its Web site.
Read the rest. Discuss.
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September 9, 2007 |
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Comments
Posted by: jrw | Sep 9, 2007 3:56:36 PM
Looovely.
Just what we need, another idiot gun freak to make the rest of us look like idiots.
Duuude, you make gun owners look bad.
Posted by: 18yearoldwithanopinion | Sep 9, 2007 4:53:15 PM
As a high senior my only response to this post would be what kind of person would want people to bring guns to schools. These days almost all public high schools have security guards (mine has 5 or 6) and dedicated police officers who are there to protect students and teachers. Also theft if huge at schools espacially theft of things owned by teachers so very easily a student could steal a teachers gun and cause havoc. The answer to school violence isnt more guns its dealing with the mental problems of students. There are a lot of kids with clear mental problems in our school system but a lack of resources prevents them from getting the help they need. At my school teachers have to many students to realize the individual problems of students. As a high school student I dont see how students can be expected to learn when their teachers carry guns around. Teachers are there to help students learn and help them with problems and to give advice. Its important that students realize that teachers are open to helping them and carrying a gun around with you while teaching screams dont mess with me and students wont approach those teachers for advice and when they need help. When will radical gun rights advocates realize that carrying a gun around with you all the time doesnt make the world safer per say.
Posted by: Kurt Chapman | Sep 9, 2007 7:11:52 PM
I own no small arms or pistols. Here in Southern Oregon there are no armed police officers in the schools. There are no security guards, let alone 5 or 6. If the concealed carry permit has been obtained in a legal and lawful manner what is the problem with an adult being given the permit and carrying in accordance as they see fit?
Posted by: Ross Williams | Sep 9, 2007 8:29:10 PM
I think Kurt hit on a couple points that are important:
1) Guns in rural and urban areas are entirely different things and people have different attitudes towards them as a result. Many rural residents use guns to protect livestock and even their gardens from wildlife. They are a tool with legitimate uses. The only reason to have a gun in an urban environment is to shoot people or as a toy for recreation.
2) The real problem here, as the former police chief points out, is that any yahoo can get a concealed weapon permit. There is simply no good reason to bring a loaded gun into a school. That someone would want to do that is a clear indication they aren't a responsible gun owner and they shouldn't be carrying a concealed weapon at all.
So, instead of exempting schools, the state should require people to provide some real reason they need to have a permit. If they want to carry a concealed, loaded weapon around with them for no good reason, they probably aren't folks who should be allowed to.
Posted by: Nick Wirth | Sep 9, 2007 8:30:34 PM
Kurt: There are actually 2 police officers in each medford high school, according to the city of medford website.
I feel that the school board chairman (a retired police lieutenant) makes a compelling argument for his district's policy, and probably knows better than any of us. There is absolutely no guarantee that a teacher's firearm will not end up in a student's hands. There is just so much potential for disaster when we allow guns to be freely carried in our schools.
Posted by: dk | Sep 10, 2007 9:52:16 AM
Here's a thought, just fire any school employee who brings a gun to school. Just because its legal doesn't mean you can't get fired for bringing it to work. There are plenty of inappropriate-but-legal things that teachers shouldn't be bringing to work (porn, alcohol) that would probably get them fired if they did so.
Posted by: Retired | Sep 10, 2007 10:40:03 AM
There is an underlying argument regarding persons who choose to carry a concealed firearm which almost never surfaces when stories like this come to the public attention.
Everyone does have the right to defend their person, but not everyone should carry or possess a firearm. Unless a person is totally physically competent and fully mentally prepared to accept the responsibilty of carrying a firearm, a firearm has more potential to harm the bearer than to protect them. Simple possession of a firearm does not guarantee a person's ability to defend themselves.
I'm not talking about simple firearm safety, although that is a component. I'm not talking about the time it takes on the firing range to be able to proficient at hitting a non moving paper target. We won't all be safer if everyone has a gun on thier hip, in plain view or concealed.
What I am talking about is the fact that carrying a firearm or any weapon requires the bearer to fully accept the totalilty of the increase in responsibilty they must have in order to simply be safe and not exageragte the danger in any situuation they might become involved in where they are defending themselves or another from deadly physical force.
Nothing against the school teacher mentioned, but it's not really very likely that she has the skills and mindset necessary to responsibly carry a firearm at school nor anywhere else for that matter. Her fear of an ex-spouse and resulting restraining order are more than valid reasons for her to be concerned about her safety and the ability to defend herself. But the fact that she was carrying a concealed weapon at work tends to indicate that she's possibly not fully aware of the responsibilty involved. In other words, if anyone is carrying a concealed weapon, it is not to person's tactical advantage to divulge that information. The fact that the ex has knowledge that she's carrying does not constitute a deterent. It does add the possibilty that he will escalate and now arm himself as well.
The act of possesing a firearm for self defense is the same as an any other commonly thought of martial art. A person should not expect that enrolling in karate class will instantly protect them from harm or be able to adequately defend themself from an attacker. It takes a lot of practice, discipline, and a whole mindset/way of life to be truly proficient. Not to mention the responsibilty of being totally awawre of your environment.
It's an unfortunate fact, but the majority of folks who possess a firearm simply do not realize the weight of the resposibilty in owning a firearm for self defense. Which gives weight to the old saying that guns don't kill people, it's people who kill people and the incidence of people being shot with thier own guns.
As a retired police officer, law enforcement/military firearms trainer, who has seen the full gamut of firearms violence, including having personally been involved on much more than just one occassion, dealt with the aftermath on so many levels, and spent thousands of hours on and off the firing range, I can say the following:
I abhor the violence in our society. Both domestically and in war. It is an unfortunate underbelly component of our society. I believe in the right of a person to possess a firearm and would glady defend that persons right to possess a firearm, where ever they may be. I strongly do not believe that the simple possession of a firearm makes any one automatically safer or capable of defending themselves. If anything, the possession of a firearm without the proper skills and appropriate mindset potentially only serves to make them and the public around them less safe in reality. I am totally opposed to promoting the possession of firearms by, for example teachers at Virgina Tech or BYU, as a means to somehow make those environments safer. It's an invalid argument based upon the assumption that just possession of firearms and minimal training would deter or prevent violence. However, if any of those people are really competent, have the training, discipline and appropriate psychiological mindeset, I would support their carrying a concealed weapon. But this is a veiled oxymoron. If a person were indeed competetent, have the required training and mindset, they would realize the error in judgement of carrying a concealed weapon in these environments. Instead opting to intelligently raise the awareness of those around them to the potential of violence in their environment. In nearly 30 years of experience, there's only been a handfull of incidents where a person carrying a concealed weapon has really made a positive difference. In most cases it has been an off-duty police officer who reacted properly under the extreme situation. It's simply not reasonable for the average citizen to be expected to react similary and get the same results.
Posted by: Sid Leader | Sep 10, 2007 12:53:51 PM
I've been shooting guns since I was knee high... not an option when your daddy runs a liquor store in a rough part of Chicago.
That said, THIS IS THE CRAZIEST IDEA I have ever heard.
Any teacher who wants to carry a gun, to work, is a menace to society and should be thrown in jail. Period.
Good Golly, Miss Molly. Now, I've heard everything.
p.s. Stay outta Medford, they crazy down there!
Posted by: Ms. Mel Harmon | Sep 10, 2007 12:53:57 PM
Guns don't belong in schools unless they are wielded by guards/police hired by the district. Teachers can be overcome by students, especially middle school and high school age kids who are going through major emotional angst and hormonal upheaval. These kids usually outweigh and can overpower most teachers in seconds and their momentary lapses in judgment can have a lifetime of consequences. Carrying a gun in a situation like that is asking for trouble. This teacher may have to accept that, unfair as it is, this situation may require her to relocate in order to try and elude her ex. The simple fact is that if she still feels unsafe after a restraining order and other measures (including keeping a gun in her home), she may need to get more proactive about trying to remove herself to a safer locale. Fair? No. Reality? Yes.
I've worked crisis lines, juvenile detention areas, and in prisons. I've owned guns of all types in the past, although I currently own none. Guns wielded by those who don't understand the first rule of guns---"don't hold it unless you are trained, capable, and WILLING to use it"--is a recipe for disaster. I've seen too many people with permits who can't hit the broad side of a barn when they are calm and thinking straight. Guess what? If you ever need to use a gun on another human being, the situation will NOT be calm and rational. YOU must be the one calm and rational thing in the midst of fear, anger, pain, and chaos--and that takes a very trained, rational, experienced mind.
By the way, not all teachers are completely sane either. One of the most admired teachers in my high school snapped one day--no warning, no pre-existing condition. She started throwing scissors, chairs, anything she could get her hands on at us and then she jumped through a plate glass window. Admittedly, it was a rare instance, but really, what if she had had a gun that day? Police go through rigorous psychological testing and training. You just can't get that in a one-day permit class.
My late husband always said: "I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-stupid."
Bringing guns into schools is just stupid.
Posted by: Chris Lowe | Sep 10, 2007 2:22:02 PM
Medford isn't rural.
Posted by: Pat Ryan | Sep 10, 2007 4:12:30 PM
Not arguing a point here, (or maybe arguing several mutually cancelling points):
On KOPJ they mentioned that the teacher in question has a restraining order against her previous S.O., and fears for her life.
Keep the term "concealed" in mind. Back in The Day, it was pretty much ok to carry rifles and pistols in public as long as they were clearly visible. We assumed that this would be an aid to law enforcement, and that police would be assisted by the additional hurdle required for concealed carry, but;
Then I took the concealed weapons training that is required by the state. About twenty percent of the class that I attended, seemed to have acquired their knowledge of the appropriate use of firearms from watching bad crime dramas on TV.
The instructor (A Canby Police marksman) would posit a situation where the permit holder, accompanied by his wife and children, encountered a robbery, carjacking, or whatever, in every case the 20% Yahoos (thanks Ross) would have started blasting away, while the instructor would have seen to his family's safety first, and then called 911.
***********
Overall, having seen that D.A.R.E. didn't work but having an officer or two in the school building had many positive effects, I'd have to go with that option rather than arming teachers.......
Side note: Rotating local police officers through the HS allows the kids and officers to see each other as human rather than submitting blindly to the tired old Gangbanger vs. Pig meme.
Posted by: Tom Civiletti | Sep 10, 2007 8:46:33 PM
In a time when police often shoot people for carrying visible mobile phones, I would not feel safe carrying a visible gun around town. It doesn't take much to make an officer of the law fear for his/her life, it seems, especially if one is an ethnic minority.
Posted by: Harry | Sep 10, 2007 11:09:28 PM
Posted by: dk | Sep 10, 2007 9:52:16 AM
Here's a thought, just fire any school employee who brings a gun to school. Just because its legal doesn't mean you can't get fired for bringing it to work.
-----------------
Hey dk, did you read the article? How about reading this:
From the MailTrib:
"School district officials said they believe they have the right to regulate the possession of a weapon by an employee and will fight the issue in court."
--------
The school district is attempting to do just what you suggest. The only problem is, it might be illegal! When school districts restrict people's rights as a condition of their employment, they can and often do get a lawsuit.
What would you say about a teacher who was asked to give up her 1st Amendment rights as a condition of her employment with the district? Does that view change when you go to the rest of the Bill of Rights?
To quote further from the MailTrib: "There is a state statute that prohibits local governments — including school boards — from restricting possession of firearms by concealed firearm permit holders," Leuenberger said. "The state statute says any such local restrictions are void."
The Oregon Firearms Federation would love to see this go to court, so that they can test the constitutionality of this law. If the school district can restrict the right of this teacher, they can also restrict the right of a retired police officer who becomes a teacher or asst. coach and wants to carry concealed at school.
I believe it was Hillsboro School District that tried and failed to prohibit the general public (non-school district employees) who held CWP from visiting the school property. They did not go to court, since they knew they would lose their case.
It will be interesting to see if Medford can legally enforce as a condition of employment this particular provision (restricting CWP employees from concealed carry). I doubt that they can. If it looks like they will fail in court, I bet the district will settle out of court rather than have this grey area settled in the teacher's (and all CWP holders) favor. Better to leave it grey.
Posted by: Chris Lowe | Sep 11, 2007 1:13:09 AM
Actually we pretty much do give up our 1st Amendment rights at work. Pubic school teachers in some respects may have slightly more latitude than private sector employees, up to a point, but beyond it & they are subject to a unique kind of public pillorying. On the other hand they probably give up more in the way of religious expression freedoms while on the job than most private sector employees -- though religious proselytizing or ostentatious display on the job may draw sanctions in some settings, while employees of some employers who have strong particularistic religious views may face pressures to conform, or face discrimination say based on sexual orientation.
Posted by: Harry | Sep 11, 2007 11:09:59 AM
You may be right, Chris. It will be interesting to see how the "condition of employment" issue gets ruled.
Where I said above: "I believe it was Hillsboro School District that tried and failed to prohibit the general public..." I was wrong. It wasn't Hillsboro, it was Lincoln HS. See below from the Oregonian:
"Portland Public Schools has a rule that no one can bring a concealed weapon on its property, even though the district has been forced to acknowledge state law trumps its rule. That was proven when a parent brought three guns to a Lincoln High School football game in 1999. School security officers were outraged and took him into custody. But ultimately the district conceded the law was on his side."
Posted by: Noops | Sep 12, 2007 4:52:56 PM
So it's ok to deprive people of their rights if you agree? I hear a lot of people basically arguing that, because they think guns shouldn't be in schools, then this is OK, even though the state fairly clearly has preemption.
This sounds an awefull lot like republicans (Domestic spying, torture, habeas corpus).
Not to mention that once again, there's almost no evidence that something bad would, in fact happen. Why is having a gun (legally, with CCW) in school any different than out in the rest of society? And do you actually have research showing good reasons for depriving people/teachers of their rights in schools? And there are, in fact, a couple of good instances (Appalachia Law School, Pearl High School) where gun owners did stop violence. There's a lot of PSH (Pants S#$%@ing Hysterics) going on here with almost no reasoned discourse on the subject. It's for the children!
To the people who believe only the police should have guns in school:
1) How has that worked? How often of police actually managed to stop school violence in process.
2) Castle Rock v Gonzales.
Posted by: JJ Ark | Sep 12, 2007 8:18:13 PM
I was alerted to this right after it came out, but chose to let others have their say...read what they had to say, and then weigh in.
Pro-Gun Progressive wrote about this on his blog:
http://progunprogressive.com/?p=639
His most salient point to us was this:
"Does anybody really think a “no guns” policy at the lady’s school would keep her hubby from stabbing her as she teaches or walks to her car after work? Of course not. What the handwringers never seem to want to acknowledge rings true here: the bad guys are going to get to us, and be armed if they choose to, no matter what policy you have in place. The only thing we can control is how we react to the situation."
once again, we are brought to the thoughts on personal security and morality: If the police are not required to protect you (see Castle Rock Vs. Gonzales) then that duty falls upon the individual.
IF that is the case (and it is,) why should we NOT allow the person in fear of his or her life the most effective means of defense? ESPECIALLY for a woman against a potentially physically larger and physically stronger assailant. The teacher in question has a restraining order against her ex, and is enough in fear of her life that she has chosen to carry despite the wish of her employer (nominally, the Citizens of the State.)
Ultimately, what we see here is the logical extension of the thought "killing someone is wrong...let the police protect you." Again, please visit the above court case for that logical extension.
I say, "If someone tries to kill you, you kill them right back, (and you don't stop until they cease to be a threat -- in accordance with state law."*
If she took her CHL course, and paid attention, then she learned the legal threshold that exists in order to shoot a firearm at someone. If she didn't, then she will end up doing something dumb, getting arrested, have her 2nd Amendment rights stripped from her, disarmed by her own idiocy.
THEN she will be gutted like a pig by her ex. Which is, apparently what some folks are willing to let happen.
Posted by: JJ Ark | Sep 12, 2007 8:19:33 PM
whoops...credit where credit is due:
* Apologies to Joss Whedon for the bastardization of his quote from Firefly.
Posted by: Nomen Nescio | Sep 13, 2007 9:25:45 AM
"You can be an undiagnosed psychotic or you could be a criminal, a serial killer even, who just hasn't been caught and you can come onto our property with a concealed weapon and we can't do much about it," Moran said.
mr. Moran is quite right. he can't do jack about criminals and psychopaths coming onto his property, with or without weapons, concealed or not, no matter what policies or laws he manages to write down. the violent, unpredictable, unreasonable sort of people he's describing won't care about his policies or his laws, they'll just walk right on in carrying whatever they please.
unless somebody stops them. that will take using force, because if they'd stop with less than being forced, they wouldn't be the sort of unreasonable, unpredictable, violent people mr. Moran is so concerned about. and using force gets a lot easier when you're armed.
which, i would hazard to guess, is why a woman whose ex-husband has repeatedly threatened her with violence might just possibly want to go armed. but perhaps mr. Moran would prefer she be helpless in the face of just such criminals and psychopaths as he himself admits he cannot stop from coming onto the property...?
Posted by: thirdpower | Sep 13, 2007 9:58:38 AM
Will the school accept responsibility and accountability for teh teachers safety since she is under threat of violence by her EX?
Posted by: Jack | Sep 15, 2007 9:29:44 AM
"So it's ok to deprive people of their rights if you agree?"
Yes, this is the core, guiding assumption of "progressivism." It's all about the tyranny of the majority. As one prominent Blue Oregon contributor stated explicitly, "we don't individual need rights." Nice.
Funny how libs are always squawking about "violence against women," yet want to disarm women to make it easier for their stalkers to harm them. Guess y'all hate guns more than "violence against women," huh? Typical hypocrisy from the left.
Posted by: Jack | Sep 15, 2007 9:31:32 AM
Whoops, should have read "we don't need individual rights."
Posted by: JJ Ark | Sep 16, 2007 9:34:54 AM
Just when you thought this subject was dead!
The Oregonian has three items in it's editorial section today...and I actually agree with Lars (there is a first time for everything I suppose, although I should probably buy a lottery ticket given the odds.)
The first is an actual commentary from Jane Doe in Medford. The teacher herself has graced our local fishwrapper with her own words. Not terribly illuminating, but worthy of a read all the same.
The second is an opinion piece by Portland Own NutBar, Lars Larson. While I disagree with Lars 99.9999999% of the time, I am afraid I have to agree with him this time.
The last is from Portland's own PR Mouthpiece, Ginny Burdick.
Now, to answer a concern of Ginny's:
In the seventh paragraph, she asks:
Now, let's move on to an actual situation. The teacher is at the blackboard and her 30 third-grade students are at their desks. In walks her ex-husband. What does she do?
Something that Ginny doesn't get, and probably is incapable of fathoming, is that it is not her response that dictates how that "scenario" plays out, gun-wise. It is HIS actions that dictate her response. If he doesn't present himself as a threat, she is LEGALLY unable to do anything. If, on the other hand, he shows up (with the restraining order, this would probably meet the requirement for "motive") with a firearm of his own in hand ("capability"), threatens her or the children under her care ("intent") then she is legally allowed to draw and shoot.
These are the requirements that are taught in that pesky class that she refers to in this fashion: But the teacher can receive a concealed handgun license simply by showing a clean criminal record and attendance at a gun-safety class.
It is a serious misconception, on her part, as well as others, that people who carry firearms are "out to shoot people." or that CHL holders are inherently dangerous to be around. The news reports and numbers do not support this lie.
WE trust teachers with the safety and wellbeing of our children 5 days a week for up to 10 hours at a stretch. I am EXTREMELY offended by her assertions that 1. a kid -- any random kid -- is more dangerous that an ex with a restraining order and a prior history of violence: What if one of her students hugs her and finds the gun? What if the student grabs the gun? and 2. oh, she is JUST a teacher: And yet, the gun-rights advocates would argue that this teacher is capable of making life and death, split-second decisions in a classroom with 30 children! Cuz we all know that teachers are idiots out to hurt our children and shoot holes in 12 year olds, right?
Posted by: Devin P | Sep 17, 2007 8:55:19 AM
Why is OK for police to be armed in schools and not teachers? Do students respect the police more than the teachers?
For those of you who say a teacher's weapon could be taken and used against them, wouldn't a student have an equal chance of grabbing an officer's gun and turning it against him? This hasn't happened yet.
Concealed carry demands that the individual pass a rigorous screen and demonstrate proficiency with a weapon. Most CCW holders get MORE training than police officers because they enjoy shooting as a skill.
Please look at Utah as an example. Utah has allowed CCW in schools since 2003 (actually 1997). Nothing has happened. many teachers who are CCW-qualified carry a weapon EVERY DAY to school.
Posted by: Miles | Sep 17, 2007 10:32:08 AM
JJ writes: why should we NOT allow the person in fear of his or her life the most effective means of defense?
We deny people that right when the possible risk to society (or, in this case, the teacher's classroom) is too great. The reason for prohibiting this teacher from carrying a weapon at school is the same reason we prohibit people from owning machine guns, anti-tank missiles, high-end explosives, and nuclear weapons. I know there are a few extremists who argue that the 2nd Amendment allows people to own all types of arms, up to and including nuclear weapons, but I don't get the sense you are one of them. So do you agree that it's okay for society (through their government) to regulate an individual's ability to own certain types of weaspons that are too dangerous?
If so, then what we're really talking about isn't a rights issue, but a danger issue. That is, does this teacher's gun present a danger to her students? Personally, I think reasonable people can disagree on this. What it really comes down to are odds: Is there a higher probability that an attacker will be shot dead by a person with a concealed weapon, or that a student will take the gun and shoot others? The odds of each are very, very small, which leads me to believe that maybe this should be left up to each community. If the community wants to allow concealed weapons into schools, fine. If the community doesn't, also fine. I'm not sure a one-size-fits-all state law works here.
P.S. -- Doesn't the argument that a concealed weapon protects the holder only work when the existence of the weaspon is not known? Once the ex-husband knows about it, which he clearly does now, it's possible he'll be deterred, but it's also possible he'll escalate. If he's really out to get his ex-wife, he's going to shoot first knowing that she's armed.
Posted by: Nomen Nescio | Sep 17, 2007 6:38:20 PM
The reason for prohibiting this teacher from carrying a weapon at school is the same reason we prohibit people from owning machine guns, anti-tank missiles, high-end explosives, and nuclear weapons.
i honestly think you could make a more persuasive argument if you'd try to refrain from such obvious hyperbole. it does you no credit. the arms at issue here are handguns; there really is no reasonable, non-hysterical way to compare them to nuclear weapons. (why are nukes so often brought up in these debates, anyway? it's a patently stupid comparison, and it is never helpful.)
Doesn't the argument that a concealed weapon protects the holder only work when the existence of the weaspon is not known? Once the ex-husband knows about it, which he clearly does now, it's possible he'll be deterred, but it's also possible he'll escalate.
true, but this does not seem to me like a good reason to go to (public) court just to deny the teacher her right to carry. rather the opposite, in fact.
Posted by: JJ Ark | Sep 17, 2007 6:46:32 PM
The reason for prohibiting this teacher from carrying a weapon at school is the same reason we prohibit people from owning machine guns, anti-tank missiles, high-end explosives, and nuclear weapons.
I think that is a miiiiiighty big reach you are making with that one.
So do you agree that it's okay for society (through their government) to regulate an individual's ability to own certain types of weaspons that are too dangerous?
actually, I *do* happen to agree with that statement...but a concealed handgun is NOT that type of weapon. A nuclear weapon does NOT equal a handgun. Nor is it the same as field artillery, explosives, or anti-tank missiles.
Machine guns aren't even the same class as the above, as they are NOT illegal...by any stretch of the imagination, nor any twist of the metaphorical knife. They are closely regulated, but even YOU could get a fully automatic machine gun. You just have to pass a background check and pay 200$ for the tax stamp (hmmm...same process as the CHL--except that the FBI does the background check, not the county--and you give them 200$ instead of ~50$)
Sorry, but the "nuke arguement" is a canard. This teacher isn't asking to bring a nuke into class...nor even a machine gun. She has a Glock.
Anyhoo...
That is, does this teacher's gun present a danger to her students?
Hers??? Nahhh. How could it? Guns are inanimate objects. A gun doesn't do anything at all without someone there to pull the trigger. I can't imagine a teacher, EVER, EVER shooting a student. If that has EVER happened, please let me know, cuz I have NEVER seen anything related to a teacher shooting a student.
Now, a decent arguement could be made that SHE, herself, is a provocation, and therefore presents a danger...not the gun, and not her even WITH the gun, but her husbands reaction to the gun, a point that you yourself made:
If he's really out to get his ex-wife, he's going to shoot first knowing that she's armed.
That is a very real possibility...even Lars would be forced to admit such.
However, unless we are willing to assign her a guard (setting a precedent that will shake the State to it's fiscal foundations,) or we are gonna just outright fire her to get rid of the problem, we have to allow some measure of lethal protection.
Or we don't. WE have to be willing to live with the consequences of our actions (as a whole society.) Sometimes those actions mean people die. Sometimes its in a far off land, when we must make soldiers do without adequate protection (thank you, GWB) or sometimes its around the corner when we ban the sale of cheap, but affordable handguns that have a target of low income, but legally clean people.
Now, to answer the gist of your arguement: I don't LIKE the fact that a firearm in mine or anyone's possession could kill someone. It does NOT make me feel safer at night knowing the thugs run around with guns, and that about 20 kids a year accidentally kill themselves with them. I do NOT like the fact that citizens of good stature are mowed down by evil people with no intent other than committing political chaos.
But I *do* sleep more comfortable knowing that there are millions of firearms in personal possession...and that the ownership of firearms passes all geopolitical and gender lines here in the US. That gives me hope that if some piss ant general decides he is going to coup or the ruling party decides that the last election truly was the last, it would not be another Rwanda, Kosovo or an Aushwitz.
On a personal level, it also gives me joy to know that our populace isn't just chattel. A citizen in our State is permitted, by law, the ability to resist, with deadly force if necessary, evil committed by bad people, provided the legal requirements are met.
Posted by: Kevin Starrett | Sep 28, 2007 6:22:24 PM
""You can be an undiagnosed psychotic or you could be a criminal, a serial killer even, who just hasn't been caught and you can come onto our property with a concealed weapon and we can't do much about it," Moran said."
Yep. So true. And every single word of this can be applied to any teacher or any police officer. And that my liberal friends, is why people need to be able to respond to threats. The incidence of sexual abuse by teachers is at an all time high, but the freedom haters and the public school establishment seem quite comfortable with that. But a gun? Let the pant wetting begin.
Posted by: Matthew | Oct 8, 2007 12:03:50 PM
""You can be an undiagnosed psychotic or you could be a criminal, a serial killer even, who just hasn't been caught and you can come onto our property with a concealed weapon and we can't do much about it," Moran said."
You guys mean like that off-duty cop in Wisconsin? Now I feel safe. Only cops should have guns, right?
Posted by: Levi J Jordan | Nov 26, 2008 11:44:38 AM
For your review.... And here is one FACT that is indisputable. Not ONE SINGLE shooter below was in possession on A state issued Concealed Pistol License. And why is it that the worst shootings of our recent history are in places where "Guns are Prohibited" Are you all so naive to think that a killer will follow the law to procure a weapon or a license to carry it? How many of these INNOCENT lives would have been saved if a teacher, parent, or Principal would have been able to DEFEND and PROTECT students? A teacher in the Columbine shooting blocked the door to try to protect the class from the shooters, he took bullets and the killers went on to kill more. What if a teacher was delivering the shots back? Would the murderous student have been able to ask "do you believe in God" and then kill the innocent?
We've become such a stupidly correct society that you are now arguing that CRIMINALS would take advantage of gun laws. Wrong, they are criminals because there is no regard for the law. Lack of historical education is preventing you “higher minded” folks from realizing that we are a Republic, based on the Constitution of the United States of America, and our Bill of Rights. May I assume from your arguments of “its different in rural America” or “Things were different back then”; that only certain rights apply to certain people, in certain places, in certain times?
Unfortunately, I know that reason, facts, and the foundation of our freedom mean nothing to those opposing. Because you all assume to be enlightened, and the IDEALS of the end, justifies the illogical means to get there.
It makes me wonder if it were you or I that would change our opinions, if faced with a murders gun barrel, the smoke filling your lungs from the shot that just killed your best friend. Would you wish for a teacher or parent to have been armed, and save you? When the cops and “security guard” are only minutes away, but you only have seconds remaining.
Did we learn nothing from 9/11. The one hijacked plane that had people stand up in their own protection prevented the loss of many.
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Feb. 2, 1996
Moses Lake, Wash. Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.
March 13, 1996
Dunblane, Scotland 16 children and one teacher killed at Dunblane Primary School by Thomas Hamilton, who then killed himself. 10 others wounded in attack.
Feb. 19, 1997
Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.
March 1997
Sanaa, Yemen Eight people (six students and two others) at two schools killed by Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri.
Oct. 1, 1997
Pearl, Miss. Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
Dec. 1, 1997
West Paducah, Ky. Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School.
Dec. 15, 1997
Stamps, Ark. Two students wounded. Colt Todd, 14, was hiding in the woods when he shot the students as they stood in the parking lot.
March 24, 1998
Jonesboro, Ark. Four students and one teacher killed, ten others wounded outside as Westside Middle School emptied during a false fire alarm. Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, shot at their classmates and teachers from the woods.
April 24, 1998
Edinboro, Pa. One teacher, John Gillette, killed, two students wounded at a dance at James W. Parker Middle School. Andrew Wurst, 14, was charged.
May 19, 1998
Fayetteville, Tenn. One student killed in the parking lot at Lincoln County High School three days before he was to graduate. The victim was dating the ex-girlfriend of his killer, 18-year-old honor student Jacob Davis.
May 21, 1998
Springfield, Ore. Two students killed, 22 others wounded in the cafeteria at Thurston High School by 15-year-old Kip Kinkel. Kinkel had been arrested and released a day earlier for bringing a gun to school. His parents were later found dead at home.
June 15, 1998
Richmond, Va. One teacher and one guidance counselor wounded by a 14-year-old boy in the school hallway.
April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colo. 14 students (including killers) and one teacher killed, 23 others wounded at Columbine High School in the nation's deadliest school shooting. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, had plotted for a year to kill at least 500 and blow up their school. At the end of their hour-long rampage, they turned their guns on themselves.
April 28, 1999
Taber, Alberta, Canada One student killed, one wounded at W. R. Myers High School in first fatal high school shooting in Canada in 20 years. The suspect, a 14-year-old boy, had dropped out of school after he was severely ostracized by his classmates.
May 20, 1999
Conyers, Ga. Six students injured at Heritage High School by Thomas Solomon, 15, who was reportedly depressed after breaking up with his girlfriend.
Nov. 19, 1999
Deming, N.M. Victor Cordova Jr., 12, shot and killed Araceli Tena, 13, in the lobby of Deming Middle School.
Dec. 6, 1999
Fort Gibson, Okla. Four students wounded as Seth Trickey, 13, opened fire with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun at Fort Gibson Middle School.
Dec. 7, 1999
Veghel, Netherlands One teacher and three students wounded by a 17-year-old student.
Feb. 29, 2000
Mount Morris Township, Mich. Six-year-old Kayla Rolland shot dead at Buell Elementary School near Flint, Mich. The assailant was identified as a six-year-old boy with a .32-caliber handgun.
March 2000
Branneburg, Germany One teacher killed by a 15-year-old student, who then shot himself. The shooter has been in a coma ever since.
March 10, 2000
Savannah, Ga. Two students killed by Darrell Ingram, 19, while leaving a dance sponsored by Beach High School.
May 26, 2000
Lake Worth, Fla. One teacher, Barry Grunow, shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by Nate Brazill, 13, with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes.
Sept. 26, 2000
New Orleans, La. Two students wounded with the same gun during a fight at Woodson Middle School.
Jan. 17, 2001
Baltimore, Md. One student shot and killed in front of Lake Clifton Eastern High School.
Jan. 18, 2001
Jan, Sweden One student killed by two boys, ages 17 and 19.
March 5, 2001
Santee, Calif. Two killed and 13 wounded by Charles Andrew Williams, 15, firing from a bathroom at Santana High School.
March 7, 2001
Williamsport, Pa. Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased.
March 22, 2001
Granite Hills, Calif. One teacher and three students wounded by Jason Hoffman, 18, at Granite Hills High School. A policeman shot and wounded Hoffman.
March 30, 2001
Gary, Ind. One student killed by Donald R. Burt, Jr., a 17-year-old student who had been expelled from Lew Wallace High School.
Nov. 12, 2001
Caro, Mich. Chris Buschbacher, 17, took two hostages at the Caro Learning Center before killing himself.
Jan. 15, 2002
New York, N.Y. A teenager wounded two students at Martin Luther King Jr. High School.
Feb. 19, 2002
Freising, Germany Two killed in Eching by a man at the factory from which he had been fired; he then traveled to Freising and killed the headmaster of the technical school from which he had been expelled. He also wounded another teacher before killing himself.
April 26, 2002
Erfurt, Germany 13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself.
April 29, 2002
Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina One teacher killed, one wounded by Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, who then killed himself.
October 28, 2002
Tucson, Ariz. Robert S. Flores Jr., 41, a student at the nursing school at the University of Arizona, shot and killed three female professors and then himself.
April 14, 2003
New Orleans, La. One 15-year-old killed, and three students wounded at John McDonogh High School by gunfire from four teenagers (none were students at the school). The motive was gang-related.
April 24, 2003
Red Lion, Pa. James Sheets, 14, killed principal Eugene Segro of Red Lion Area Junior High School before killing himself.
Sept. 24, 2003
Cold Spring, Minn. Two students are killed at Rocori High School by John Jason McLaughlin, 15.
Sept. 28, 2004
Carmen de Patagones, Argentina Three students killed and 6 wounded by a 15-year-old Argentininan student in a town 620 miles south of Buenos Aires.
March 21, 2005
Red Lake, Minn. Jeff Weise, 16, killed grandfather and companion, then arrived at school where he killed a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and finally himself, leaving a total of 10 dead.
Nov. 8, 2005
Jacksboro, Tenn. One 15-year-old shot and killed an assistant principal at Campbell County High School and seriously wounded two other administrators.
Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother.
Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.
Sept. 27, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself.
Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.
Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.
Jan. 3, 2007
Tacoma, Wash. Douglas Chanthabouly, 18, shot fellow student Samnang Kok, 17, in the hallway of Henry Foss High School.
April 16, 2007
Blacksburg, Va. A 23-year-old Virginia Tech student, Cho Seung-Hui, killed two in a dorm, then killed 30 more 2 hours later in a classroom building. His suicide brought the death toll to 33, making the shooting rampage the most deadly in U.S. history. Fifteen others were wounded.
Sept. 21, 2007
Dover, Del. A Delaware State Univesity Freshman, Loyer D. Brandon, shot and wounded two other Freshman students on the University campus. Brandon is being charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless engagement, as well as a gun charge.
Oct. 10, 2007
Cleveland, Ohio A 14-year-old student at a Cleveland high school, Asa H. Coon, shot and injured two students and two teachers before he shot and killed himself. The victims' injuries were not life-threatening.
Nov. 7, 2007
Tuusula, Finland An 18-year-old student in southern Finland shot and killed five boys, two girls, and the female principal at Jokela High School. At least 10 others were injured. The gunman shot himself and died from his wounds in the hospital.
Feb. 8, 2008
Baton Rouge, Louisiana A nursing student shot and killed two women and then herself in a classroom at Louisiana Technical College in Baton Rouge.
Feb. 11, 2008
Memphis, Tennessee A 17-year-old student at Mitchell High School shot and wounded a classmate in gym class.
Feb. 12, 2008
Oxnard, California A 14-year-old boy shot a student at E.O. Green Junior High School causing the 15-year-old victim to be brain dead.
Feb. 14, 2008
DeKalb, Illinois Gunman kills five students and then himself, and wounds 17 more when he opens fire on a classroom at Northern Illinois University. The gunman, Stephen P. Kazmierczak, was identified as a former graduate student at the university in 2007.
Sept. 23, 2008
Kauhajoki, Finland A 20-year-old male student shot and killed at least nine students and himself at a vocational college in Kauhajok, 330km (205 miles) north of the capital, Helsinki.
Nov. 12, 2008
Fort Lauderdale, Florida A 15-year-old female student was shot and killed by a classmate at at Dillard High School in Fort Lauderdale.
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Posted by: David The Troll | Sep 9, 2007 1:46:18 PM
Gun Control is Two Steady hands. If That Moron Potter and Rosie's Raiders Won't do anything in Portland Then We as Citizens Should Take Control As For Medford Right On.
Any Citizen is Allowed To protect themselves and Their Property.