I'm with Pam also. The Democrats have to be more inclusive. What Kari advocates is a mistake, just like the idea of making Howard Dean party chairman. The party has to move closer to the center to regain the parts of its base that it has lost. This will take a lot of intellectual work and a lot of self searching. But most of all, it's going to require the cultivation of the kind of talent that can pursuasively bear a different message.

Hi Folks...

I'd encourage folks to look beyond the immediate gratification of capturing the WH with an acceptable mid-road candidate from the South or MidWest red state. It's a short term feel good strategy that will ultimately deny us the opportunity to re-establish progressive policies and practices.

I believe we need to consider ourselves out of play on the national level for at least two and maybe four or five [2 yr] election cycles.

The Ds now have three bases of power...the Northeast, the Upper Midwest and the Pacific Rim. The latter, that us, is the only economically and culturally dynamic region of the three. A number of pointy heads in the dismal and social sciences believe that within twenty years the dominant economic focal point will be trans Pacific trade with a developing and growing trans Pacific culture. We don't see it in that stark relief because we live with it every day.

If that's the case then the new D intellectual foundation will need to come from the West as will the new D leadership. The political traditions of OR, WA and CA already contain a healthy dose of practical libertarianism combined with effective government. Granted there are clearly elements of too big, too agressive government that need to be addressed. Folks in this region, though, rarely roll over and let government action go unchallenged.

Another challenge is organization. The Rs took every lesson from Alinsky et al and outorganized us. Part of the problem is that Ds, now more than ever middle to upper class, intellectually feast on the carcass of class struggle and the New Deal. Except for summer interns and trustafarians few folks are willing to get down to the deadly boring work of organizing precinct by precinct, house by house. The classic organizing model works, the Rs used it with deadly effectiveness replacing communities of place with communities of interest, i.e. churches. Organized labor is, sad to say, a decreasing factor especially in its ability to organize on a community scale. The millions put up by Soros et al needs to be funneled into broad based long term organizing in community based organizations specifically and pointedly bypassing the national party apparatus. We desperately need a cadre of ward-heelers who can get the garbage picked up.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment

Two quick thoughts -- Pat, I think the people of New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc would beg to differ with your contention that the Pacific Rim is the only "culturally dynamic" of the various bases of Democratic power.

I think it worth remembering that we didn't lose by as much as the White House is spinning it and this with a candidate who even most of his supporters didn't really like very much.

Among all the spins this WH has succeeded in selling is the idea that GWB is "like me" -- a lot of people like GWB, feel comfortable with him, think they'd be comfortable having him and his wife round for a barbecue etc. A big part of Bill Clinton's magic was his ability to leave his audience feeling like they could be friends with him. Part of Al Gore's failure and John Kerry's failure was that no one wanted to invite these guys to dinner. I don't know where I read it -- but someone said of Teresa Heinz Kerry she seems like the sort of woman who would need to ask her staff where the brooms are stored in her house. Laura Bush may, in reality, be no less dependent on staff and no more likey to sweep the floor but they've sold the image that the Bush's are like other middle class families. I always thought THK was gonna be trouble -- she just looks as snooty and high-falutin' as many people thought JK was, a cold fish, superior, etc. I mean even I can't imagine her doing the shopping, loading bags into the mini-van, attending a PTA meeting -- I mean that's laughable -- whereas even if it's spin I can imagine Laura Bush doing those things and know Hillary Clinton did them -- perhaps because she knew politically she had to even if she would have chosen not to.

I think we need a likeable candidate with a likeable spouse that people are comfortable with -- if his policies are somewhere within the general mainstream he'll be a winner.

My reading of the situation, for what it's worth:

The vital center of this party is agnostic on the question of gay marriage (but is vehement that they don't want to legislate discrimination); is for single payer health insurance (but doesn't see how to successfully take on the power of the health industry after Reagan and Bush the First privatized it and gave it more or less the power that the railroads exercised in the Gilded Age); and most of all, are anti-Iraq War (but don't know how to handle the 'soft-on-defense' caricature).

This party needs to move profoundly to the left or it will go the way of the Whigs, i.e. they will disappear into history.

In fact, the story of the Whigs offer an object lesson. They were cobbled together out of a different interest groups whose only serious common denominator was a visceral disgust with Andrew Jackson. It wasn't until the abolitionist movement (at that time a much more radical fringe group than anything the Dems have going on now) started the Republican Party and folded in the Whigs and Free Soil Party elements that the opposition to corporatists like Cleveland and McKinley were ever able to do anything except take momentary advantage of infrequent periods of corporate weakness.

We need to revitalize the power of labor by organizing the Wal-Marts of this world and framing that as a moral issue; by showing the charts, with Ross Perot like regularity, which capture and dramatize the vast shift of wealth from the bottom to the top over the past thirty years; and most of all by not falling for the same damn Republican trick, over and over and over again in a grimly predictable sickening rhythm, of selling one another out for momentary advantage.

I'm talking about Kerry's lamentable equivical rope-a-dope on gay marriage, which was nothing more than an inept tragicomic repetition of the so-called Sistah Souljah strategy, stripped of its Clintonian verve; I'm talking about not repeating the disastrous pattern of the split of the hardhats from the anti-Vietnam War movement by being pro-active with labor and convincing it that workers have something serious to gain (like more control of the workplace, not just a rise in the minimum wage) with us; I'm talking about less Robert Rubin and more Naomi Klein, less DLC "vote for us, we're Republican lite" (it didn't work for Scoop Jackson and it won't work now), and yes, more Michael Moore. More Thomas "Whatever Happened to Kansas?" Frank. Less Thomas Friedman, more Krugman on his good days.

This is the only way that I know of to begin to recapture the moral high ground in the popular imagination. Less corporate. More populist without the bigotry.

We can do this.

JH

I agree that Democrats can’t move much more to the center than Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, and John Edwards without becoming Republicans. Gore lost Florida because Nader took away a lot of votes on the left. That could easily be repeated if the Democrats moved any further to the right.

I also agree that Gore and Kerry would have won if they had been more likeable and less aristocratic looking and sounding. But they still would have been close elections. And in case you didn’t notice, Democrats are losing Senate and House seats too, not just presidential elections.

The problem is that both strategies mentioned above are only strategies for barely winning 50%+1 in the Electoral College. What we need is a new vision, philosophy, and strategy for creating a new governing majority that doesn’t hinge upon nominating candidates with movie star looks and charisma, and doesn’t require us to pander to the right, try to out-Republican the Republicans, and sell out our principles in the process.

It’s easy to see what Republicans stand for: Capitalism, free markets, free trade, low taxes, limited government, and social/religious conservatism. Their strategy is to form a coalition between business interests and social conservatives throughout the heartland.

It’s true the Republicans have their divisions also, and I think we’ll see them come to the fore now that they are clearly the governing party in DC. But they have much greater party discipline than Democrats.

What do Democrats stand for, and what is their strategy? I don’t know. Democrats are more of a collection of liberal causes than a cohesive party. It used to be dominated by unions and was effectively a Labor party. But that isn’t true anymore. Democrats used to be socialists but that isn’t true anymore. The party is split on trade issues. The Democrats’ strategy is to unite unions, environmentalists, feminists, minorities, and socialists into a ruling majority. Sorry, that’s not going to fly anymore. Something else is needed that the average Joe Six Pack and Soccer/Security Mom can hang their hat on.

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Kerry got more votes. W's Mandate Delusion is a lie, exactly like WMD in Iraq.

You remember WMD in Iraq, right? And you were sure they were there, because TV said so? Pssst: It was a TV lie. Ain't no WMD in Iraq.

The 19-fanatics Legend of 9/11 you saw so many times on TV? Pssst: It was a TV lie. TV does lie to you. The eye-witnesses and people on the ground tell a contradictory story. Weapons inspectors in Iraq said there ain't no WMD. They were right but TV censored them. Over half the people in New York City, where the most eye-witnesses are, say 9/11 was not 19-fanatics. They are right but TV censors them.

So, real slowly now, Kerry. Got. More. Votes. Eyewitnesses and people on the ground in Ohio and Florida (and more) say so. The TV is lying to you to build W's Mandate Delusion. I know, I know, it is breathtaking to try to imagine that TV could just lie what the vote count is, lie and say Dumbo got more votes. Surely someone would catch them, stop them, correct them. Nope. You got fooled once into being convinced there were WMD in Iraq. Now you are convinced of W's Mandate Delusion, fooled you twice, shame on ... uh, you can't get fooled again, can you? Listen: Kerry. got. more. votes. TV is lying about it.

Okay, it is a big leap to go from thinking you know what the vote count is, over to thinking you are being lied to so you haven't heard what the vote count is. Maybe take a practice leap to see if you could do it. Suppose, pretend, imagine, suspend judgement for minute and just flatly assume Kerry got more vote, TV is lying. Now, hold that thought and go back through and read a bunch of the recent posts and comments here and listen what they sound like. Here's something I heard when I did that. There is a thread about fixing the DNC and DLC. I went into it thinking Kerry got more votes. Meaning what we did that mobilized and got out the vote, worked. Meaning the Dem. party, (DNC, DLC, et al.) ain't broke, and don't need fixing. Uh ... er, uh ... as I was reading all the 'inside pragma politics' of how to fix it. Or, as I was reading all the 'red voters outnumber us', (nope, red voters came in second), and 'people voted about morals', (whatever, Kerry got more votes and GOP lying is not moral). So just try out the view that TV is lying to you and look at what things look like and listen to what claims sound like from that point of view.

To me it is WMD deja vu all over again. W's Mandate Delusion. WMD-fool us twice? Were you stubborn to let go of your conviction on WMD in Iraq? (You did eventually realize it was a flat-out TV lie in your face, didn't you?) Probably you are going to handle another WMD lie the same way, stubborn to believe Kerry got more votes, slow to get that W's Mandate Delusion is a flat-out TV lie in your face.

The Kerry ballots evidence is collecting rapidly, with multiple breaking stories over the weekend. The internet is organizing mobilization and it is easy to find it and join up. Vote fraud charges and disputed ballot counting and activist forays are igniting faster and thicker than Rove can quash them. (Did you catch USA Today reporting Sen. Lincoln Chaffee, RI, said he doesn't rule out leaving the GOP? Add Collins and Snowe and, heck, even Gordon Smith who can't be real proud of being seen as the 1937-moderate-nazi of today, and reconsider the possibilities of what can happen if loose cannons start shifting.) The strongest moves are going to be the earliest ones, and I'm worried besides about what Octo.Surprise could come under Nov.11's planets, as I commented in the guess-the-O.S. thread, able to overwhelm and deflect all ajudication of vote fraud. That's this Thursday. Stock up duct tape. (IMHO.) And emergency food, water, batteries, gas. Electric generator, too? Of course, TV has not said anything about such things happening, have they -- I don't know cause I barely watch.

A side skirmish I think is called for, (since I think Kerry got more votes), could set up a big honking guffaw that mocks the newspaper at its editorial today. Did you see that? "Bloggers get burned on exit polls"? That's a riot. W's Mandate Delusion, a-lie-to-fool-you-twice, and The 'O' has the hook all the way down its everlovin' GOP-slavin' editorial throat. Bloggers to 'O': WMD in Iraq (as you promised): that was a lie. Your Legend of 9/11 is a lie. Fla.2K was a lie. W served his duty in military is a lie. Mission accomplished was a lie. No radio wire during debates was a lie. Explosives stolen before our soldiers got there was a lie. The Medicare bill cost was a lie. The tax cuts for all was a lie. No Child Left Blind is a lie. There are bushels of Bush lies. And The Oregonian lied every one of them every time. So, uh, where's the ballot evidence The O is not lying again for W's Mandate Delusion?

More information is better than less in deciding who to believe and what TV is lying about. Go unto the internet and dig out the information. Read the material by eye witnesses and election workers reporting from the polls and precincts. You have to go get it because mass media intends to not give you anything that contradicts their lies.

Here's some linking-off points. GregPalast.com BlackBoxVoting.org Even mild-mannered Thom Hartmann clobbers the lie, Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked, (published on Saturday, November 6, 2004 by CommonDreams.org), viz: "When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how."

Mike Ruppert offered a stirring call to mobilize, concluding a recent update on his book sales and Rove's moves to stop it. "Just recently I sent out a message to my staff and key advisors and activists. Here's what I said: Ladies and Gentlemen: We have acquired the power. We need to adjust our thinking caps and realize that we are no longer beggars but players who just got a seat at the table. We must act that way! We have earned this opportunity and now it is ours to take; not for our good but to fulfill that compassion which has bound us all together so tightly."

And finally for now, "SNAP OUT OF IT!," to end hang-dog gloom and point a course to follow. What to do, what to do? First thing, kill all media liars. Simply cancel your cable TV, your payments go to finance the red-religious FOXzi right, (which never existed before cable TV was invented). Caution: Highly informed action plan follows, your results may vary.

[© Copyright 2004, From The Wilderness Publications, www.fromthewilderness.com. All Rights Reserved. May be reprinted, distributed or posted on an Internet web site for non-profit purposes only.] SNAP OUT OF IT! The Day to Forget the November 2nd Election Forever is November 3rd The Rest of the World Fights the Empire With Money - What We Should Have Been Doing Here All Along Now is the Time to Attack on the Fronts Where We Have Real Power by Michael C. Ruppert

November 5, 2004 1900 PDT (FTW) - The rest of the world has known for some time that it is pointless to oppose this Empire either militarily or electorally. They haven't the resources for the former and are legally barred from the latter. I think it's time the American people adopted the same philosophy. We are, after all, legally barred from inspecting electronic voting machines. The rest of the world has been fighting with money and public relations because these tactics work and work well. This is a lesson that American activists and true patriots should have learned four years ago. Now the tempo of battle will increase just as surely as the stakes have been raised both globally and domestically for us all.

While everyone waits for the administration's first move a Rubicon has been crossed and there is no turning back. America will fight for oil wherever it feels the need.

Now the real Fourth World War begins. Sorry to disappoint all the scriptwriters and futurists who were thinking exclusively in terms of bombs, plagues, famine etc. The first weapons of mass destruction in this war will be economic and they will be devastating beyond imagination. [Emphasis added.]

I feel good now, three days after the election. It was much easier for me to recover than most because FTW and its readers had less invested in the election than most. But I am not so glib or cavalier as to overlook the massive disillusionment that weighs like a wet blanket on all who had hoped that their prodigious efforts might oust the Neo-cons. The biggest blessing today is that the disillusionment is so deep, so fundamental, that at last people who have bound themselves to ineffective political strategies may rethink their deeper core beliefs; their beliefs about what America was supposed to be versus what it has become.

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Let's see. In Oregon Democrats picked up seats in the Senate and now control that body. We also became more competitive in the House. We also have a Democratic Governor...Secretary of State...Treasurer...we nearly defeated Ballot Measure 36...We have a moderate Republican as a U.S. Senator along with our Democratic Senator...Democrat David Wu handily won his election against a well-funded rival after begin targeted by the Republicans. I sort of see Oregon as a beacon of hope. There's lots of work left to do, but we did turn out the vote and we got results. My hat is off to all of the hard-working Oregonians who made it happen.

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Bill -- That Oregon came out as polled and exit-polled, and even that the Secr.of.State's official 'predicted turnout' (84%) was right (85%), attests to the soundness of Vote-by-Mail. Perhaps Oregon's shining beacon can light the way to Vote-by-Mail Nation. (Plagiarizing my own placard at last summer's Kucinich rally.)

John D. -- Smith has never been a moderate ... voting with Republican party: True, true. And he has gotten away in a p.r. bubble where he has never been called on it. That was then, this is now. And now he has the option to change his party registration if he disagrees with or wants to resist the Gang Of Psychos (GOP) murderous militarism. If he chooses to keep the GOP brand on his brain, he is one of them and he shares guilt in every of their past crimes. Since harboring GOP liars who committed vote fraud Nov. 2. Smith knows this administration has committed vote fraud and Smith knows who the liars are, and in not coming forward with his knowledge of a crime, Smith makes himself a criminal accessory in league with criminals. His claim of honor in his GOP is the honor among thieves. Next time he shows up 'back in the district', meaning if he deems to visit Oregon maybe he can be served papers requiring him to be deposed on what he knows of the Nov. 2 vote fraud he watched be committed. And, as I said in the earlier post, if other senators and representatives start to bolt the GOP then Smith is under fiercer scrutiny to leave the thieves or stand with their crimes and immorality as his own.

About three weeks before the Iraq invasion, Smith and Wyden spoke in Oregon City giving their sanctified righteousness for having on their conscience the killing of thousands and thousands of human souls which they voted to commit into violent bloodshed. Maybe when they have to raise their hand to vote for or against more public money being spent to kill humankind, someone could send them a severed one to raise. There is some amount of mental disconnect exhibited in Smith when he can feel the deep grief of the tragic loss of his son and not equally feel that same grief in any parent anywhere whose child is the target of the bullets Smith votes public money to kill with. His soft stuffy words are made complete lies by his actions that hold his religious morality superior to the religious practice of Iraqis he means to exterminate, saying such are undeserving of internationally agreed human rights.

Damn right this is pointedly accusatory of Smith -- he is voting public money to kill people who do not threaten America or him, and he has that truth on his conscience, (as do we his electors), to face. He stood in Oregon City and said "We know Saddam has VX and nerve gas and weapons of mass destru- ..." -- "No they don't," I said, in the second row ten feet from him, "those threats are not there." And my interruption stopped his sing-song cold, breaking his recitation, and he glared at me three seconds, rattle-shook his head side-to-side, tried to restart his sentence but only spoke some mumbling until he could get to the boilerplate 'scout's honor' pledge-to-the-people mission statement which consists of the six purposes for which the U.S.A. is constituted. But he could only think of three of them (unity, defense, and wealth), forgetting justice, domestic tranquility, and liberty's blessings secured to posterity. As he uh'ed and er'ed to list three, was I unkind to heckle him by saying, "Justice. You forgot Justice. What about Justice?" Damn straight. [The hours and words I cite were recorded on video tape by the cameraperson for KATU television who afterwards shared with me and paid for lunch.]

Senator, your GOP side of the aisle has spawned war crimes and crimes against humanity, and violated its members' constitutional oaths, and now, Nov. 2, defrauded the people's vote, and you have participated in these injustices behind your putative leader in this executive administration. Where do you stand, Senator -- behind the criminal or with the people? Choose. Now. Decide and say. Before there is anymore needless senseless killing.

Where are all the WMD's you listed in Iraq, Senator, when you could not list the six purposes of our nation? Where are the ballots claimed to be votes for Bush's Gang Of Psychos, when the uncounted ones in unopened boxes straw-polled mostly for Kerry? And to the point, where were you, Senator Smith, and Senator Wyden, when Oregonians arrived home in flag-draped caskets? I didn't see you there. Remember me? The one who spoke to you face-to-face and said there was no threat, there were no weapons, there is no just killing. I told you so. And now I tell you your service with the mentally unstable Bush, and your partisans, are a disgrace to Oregon. Please, Senator, by your acts and deeds prove me wrong.

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