The problem is there is an instinct common to too many humans to plunder and pillage. There is an abundance of evidence of this from the histories of the Mongol hordes to the introduction and expansion of European stock in what is now North America. In her book, "Progress for a Small Planet," Barbara Ward mentioned early pioneers chopping down and destroying a few acres of forest. She noted at that time it was possible to do that sort of thing without a great impact but that attitude is no longer sustainable. Nevertheless, our society continues to behave that way with greater impact on declining resources. Capitalism in its basic form has its virtues, but the human instinct in many people for insatiable accretion has warped that economic system into one of ultimate destruction. Surely one of the most absurd mantras to ever leave a human's head is the one about too much never being enough.

As for Californians moving to Oregon, many people left California because it was becoming overcrowded with people moving into it from Oregon, Washington and other states. When I ended my temporary sojourn in California and moved to Oregon there were more people moving from Oregon to California than from California to Oregon.

It would be interesting if we could have a Native American opinion on white pioneers who did not follow the example of the Lewis and Clark expedition who came, saw and left.

Ah, but the Lewis and Clark Expedition was all about coming, seeing, MAPPING and leaving in order to pave the way for others to come and stay.

Why be nervous? Urban Oregon is a socialist hellhole that all REAL Americans must be fleeing as fast as possible, because that kind of lifestyle just doesn't work, remember? No self-respecting person is going to want to live like this, right? And those few that do...will come and outvote the Republicans to the east.

Obama is President, and Oregon is a solid blue state at last. Nothing but good times ahead. :-)

"Surely one of the most absurd mantras to ever leave a human's head is the one about too much never being enough."

"He who dies with the most toys wins" tops it.

Another point regarding Californians (and others) moving to Oregon. Many of the most diligent protectors of Oregon's environment are immigrants from other states while many of the people selling out to developers are multiple-generation Oregonians. Note "many" doesn't mean "all."

Bodden - Ward is hopelessly stuck in her own culture then. How does she KNOW there was little impact? Nobody asked the locals about that. Let's just say that for someone talking about industrialism and overall purely scientific considerations of biosystems, maybe a few acres of destruction had no impact.

I'm shocked and disappointed to see such a headline here at Blue Oregon. Before my partner and I moved to Portland exactly a year ago today, I'd heard (on the internet) that some natives had that attitude -- but I've never actually encountered it until now.

Would it really be so terrible if people like that Times reporter moved here? Most of the people I've met in the last year have been non-natives and all of them love Oregon and love the city and fit in here so well it's as if they've never lived anywhere else.

That's one of the things that appeals to me so strongly about Portland. It's a small city, but a cosmopolitan one. When I tell people I'm from New York they don't look askance -- as people in other parts of the country have -- or automatically assume I lived in New York City (it was a rural village). I love that. It makes me feel welcome, as if it doesn't really matter where I'm from as long as I'm participating in the community.

If you want to make Portland a closed society, that's one way to go about it: make those of us who aren't natives feel unwelcome. There are plenty of places around the country who have successfully achieved that goal and seem happy with the results.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to enjoy what Portland has to offer and to lend my energy and talents toward making it an even better place to live. If that makes you nervous, well, I can't say I'm sorry.

I am not understanding what makes you nervous. THe guy was looking for a cheap vacation (they ate at the Acropolis?) and compared to NYC, this must've looked third world (of course, to most New Yorkers anything outside NYC looks provincial.)

So we're a relatively cheap place to live. It will probably stay like that until we get some decent employers to move here - which ain't going to happen soon.

Compared to what we earn? We are NOT a comparatively cheap place to live. When I was working as part of a natioal cohort of clinical trials support personnel, I was disappointed to learn we were paying the same rents and utilities and food and entertainment prices as urban centers with MUCH more than PDX offers. And I was earning substantially less. Moreover, hiring managers and directors have for years told me that the talent pool in the PacNW is nonpareil. We are hugely educated and hugely underpaid. It is crying-out-loud competitive here.

No, my friend, this is NOT cheap living. It is only cheap vacationing or visiting.

I submit this from the pay half your wages per month for rent crowd. And I do not have credit cards etc.

Never thought I'd hear someone who calls herself a progressive make such a close-minded, conceited, right-wing protectionist comment like that.

I'm glad that people like Carla Axtman are in the extreme minority here in Oregon.

Just so long as they don't try to bring in any Schludwiller beer.

"Wanna try Idaho?"

one would assume that by making such provincial comments that Carla comes from a long line of Oregonians dating back to, well, the dawn of time.

what an amazingly conservative viewpoint.

"Most of the people I've met in the last year have been non-natives and all of them love Oregon and love the city and fit in here so well it's as if they've never lived anywhere else."

If you've only lived here a year, how on earth would you know who "fits in here" and who doesn't? Maybe the reason that most of the people you've met are transplants is because too many of the people who grew up here or moved here from other parts of Oregon have been priced out of Portland.

If you'd lived here longer, you'd know that there's always been this attitude that the privilege of living in Portland is supposed to compensate for the depressed wage scale. Meanwhile, the cost of living keeps going up and up, thanks to an influx of people who think that $250K for a house is dirt cheap and that a meal is a bargain if it's less than $25 a plate.

Carla, count me among the nervous.

"Never thought I'd hear someone who calls herself a progressive make such a close-minded, conceited, right-wing protectionist comment like that."

and

"Well now you have...if you buy into that stupid premise."

Just because someone recycles an old aphorism for a title for an article doesn't mean the author agrees with the tone it achieved in its several later variations. But come to think of it, there are times it sounds like a good idea.

Carla - please try to differentiate me calling out your "conservative viewpoint" to calling YOU a conservative. there is a BIG difference. beyond that, i don't believe that my comment in any way expressed what i think you should believe.

then maybe you could address my other "bullshit premise" relating to who belongs and who doesn't. or was my point to subtle?

Steve, the best way to lessen dependence on the automobile is to eliminate exclusive residential zoning. One of the things that renders development from the late 19th century and early 20th "liveable" are the grid street layouts, which promote bicycle and walking transportation as well as the incorporation of commercial establishments. Why not provide tax and other incentives for people to create "corner grocery stores" and other such things in residential neighborhoods?

Suburbs that date from the post ww2 era were not designed to accomodate public transportation and trying to force it on them is just a waste of money.

Another way to create a "demand" for public transportation (interurban rail and streetcars) is to make Portland an attractive place for large scale industrial development. This doesn't mean necessarily mean lessening environmental regulations but a more competitive tax structure would help since as others have pointed out, Oregon already has competitive wages...

"Compared to what we earn?"

Uh, I think I said: "THe guy was looking for a cheap vacation (they ate at the Acropolis?) and compared to NYC"

I understand about not being cheap to live hear, but again, until we get decent-paying employers here, it's going to be expensive to live here without good jobs.

"Yes, if lots and lots of people move to Portland because of articles like this one, that would be terrible."

Explain this since I am confused also. If someone wants to come here and work and contribute to the econommy and they are from MYC, why is that an issue?

OK, i will spell it out.

what's the cut-off for you? who DESERVES to be here? everyone who is here now, but no one else? do people that, say, moved from dreaded California in the 90's deserve to stay? what's your comfort zone, Carla?

one of the trade-offs to being in a cool place is that people tend to find out about it and want to be there too. deal. i assume a lot of people you know moved here ffrom elsewhere at some point. maybe you did, yourself. your attitude, to me, smacks of "i got mine, screw the rest". not very progressive in my book.

i could be wrong, though. tell me differently.

Hey Eric: are you really so hotly invested in this or just looking for a place for an enjoyable pissing match? What does this reallllly and truly matter to you?

I am dying to know. I'm a native. Went away from years, had to. Spent ALL of those years except my SF years sniffing the air and driving roads for hours trying to find water that smelled right, sounded right.

Inevitable that I must return home. To find mamas with spandex over their huge butts, stilettos and boom boxes: on Mt Hood's highest seats. And mini malls everywhere I looked. My home, my home was gone. My template was well and truly shat upon.

And: worst, I, a native, a person who is here to stay forever... I cannot and probably never can afford a little tiny piece of it of my own to take care of.

We all know why that is. NO need to belabor.

But I think I'm a little puzzled about this stupid pissing match going on in this thread? Eric, I don't sense that it truly matters to you. You just want a fight with Carla!

Carla, et al: I agree, but believe the damage is already done! I loved the old pdx. Burnside was more than a bit scary and the Pearl Dist meant seedy bars, gay clubs and unruly mayhem. No highrise condos. No hipsters. No fancy-schmancy articles in the NYT. Local stores, not national chains. Local musicians smoking local dope. Mostly locals, born and raised. Good times.

That's the portland that I'll always remember most fondly.

A. Growth is inevitable, all one can do is plan for it. If it occurs without adequate planning, big trouble results. B. I love Portland, I grew up there, but I can't live there. The weather is a counterbalancing factor that will limit growth. Some of us go insane without sunlight. C. If you want to limit growth, keep your taxes high. Seriously, this will be particularly repulsive to the wingnut retirees that will vote against your schools, libraries, and other worthy things. California excretes a lot of these people, and believe me you don't want 'em.

I think Eric Cantona might be more comfortable hyperventilating at Portland Indymedia. Obviously in our nominally democratic republic, nobody "deserves" to live in a particular place. And as for the allegedly left/right split on this point, the "I'm here now, shut the gates" mentality seems rather ecumenical.

I distinctly recall a guy from the Portland area living down the hall from me in my Southern California college dormitory in 1973. He had some sort of McCall-esque "come visit, then go home" items taped onto his door.

Karol, people move here for various reasons. I doubt skin color is keeping many people away, but housing prices probably are. Beaverton--loathed by many people posting here, I suspect, on account of its sprawl--is, I believe, the most racially and ethnically mixed city in Oregon.

But back to the subject of Carla's original post, this passage from the linked NY Times article is brilliant:

"When I heard that Beau Breedlove, the former intern who at the age of 17 began an affair with Portland’s mayor, Sam Adams, was signing copies of Unzipped magazine, in which he appears 98 percent naked, I hurried to Fantasy, an adult store, dutifully bought the latest issue ($8.99; no sales tax in Oregon!) and stood in line for my autograph — a piece of history."

rw: a bit of both. i think.

Carla: i was in a bad mood yesterday, so that may have colored my comments. i will try to be a little more clear and civil.

i've been here all my life and i've seen this city change from a backwater burg (my perspective) to a vibrant and (more) cultured place. a great deal of that is due to the people that have moved here in the last 20 years. many will disagree with this sentiment, and that's fine. i, for one, am excited to see what the future holds for us. we've laid the groundwork through careful planning for a place significantly different than most metropolitan areas in the US.

i also bristle at the notion that we should present a McCallian attitude of visit but don't stay. my feeling is that either we have a great place that we love, and because of that others want to be here too, or we go back to being a backwater burg that no one wants to even visit. i think i know which one makes more economic sense. bottom line is this: our city will change. let the progressive elements in this community continue to create an urban form that makes this region great.

finally, the US has long been seen as a place with (albeit limited now) open arms to people from outside its borders. why should Portland, or anywhere else in this nation, act any differently?

Karol, I think it's those "Keep Portland Weird" stickers that are keeping people away. :-)

OK, I'm a white male in a mixed-race family, and I can appreciate your point after a fashion: I'd like my child to see more people that look like her. BTW, Portland demographic data per Wikipedia are as follows:

74.1% (401,053) non-Hispanic White 8.5% (46,296) Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 7.9% (42,665) Black or African American 7.9% (42,589) Asian 2.9% (15,804) Some other race 2.8% (15,074) American Indian and Alaska Native 0.6% (3,220) Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander

You compared Portland to New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and Atlanta. The first three all have populations around 5-10 times that of Portland, and larger cities are always more ethnically mixed. As for Atlanta, which is close in size to Portland, the Wikipedia demographic summary is as follows:

"At the 2005-2007 American Community Survey Estimates, the city's population was 38.6% White (35.7% non-Hispanic White alone), 57.3% Black or African American, 0.5% American Indian and Alaska Native, 2.3% Asian, 2.4% from some other race and 1.1% from two or more races. 4.7% of the total population were Hispanic or Latino of any race."

Portland thus has larger fractions of Asian, Hispanic and Native American folks than does Atlanta.

We all know about Oregon's baleful history of institutionalized discrimination against non-whites, and we also all know why Atlanta has a large black population. The US is a big country with radically different regional histories that have a lot to do with present demographics.

We are who we are. None of us picked our parents.

We can quibble about what kind of people come or stay, what color they are, or how vibrant, whether you like living in a bsckwater or exciting urban environment. Yes, but there is no doubt that the increase in population is physically destroying our state (and country and world).

If that doesn't make you nervous then you've either found satori or you've got your head in the sand.

Karol wrote:

"I wasn't thrilled when I saw in 2003 that Portland was 88% White."

What a racist statement.

Who cares what the percentage is?

I would never check something like that as a way of determining where to live or if I expected to be happy there.

Carla- I wonder what would happen if we took your logic and ran with it. That is to say, wouldn't America become a completely different country if a whole bunch of foreigners moved here? Does that mean that we should place even stricter limitations on immigration? Perhaps this is why people have accused you of being conservative on this point.

Also, I understand that Oregon is your home and that it is very special to you. I understand why you are protective of your home state. I'm not from Oregon and have lived in Oregon for less than a decade, yet I also feel that Oregon is home to me. I've fallen completely in love with Oregon, and especially with Portland. I ride my bike to work and use public transportation as much as possible when I'm not on my bike. I help educate Portland's youth. I try to shop and eat local goods.
I admit that I was/am offended by your post. In what way do I (and others like me) make Portland "less livable?"

BJKABE and the rest of you who are offended: you are just looking for a reason to be offended. YOu know darned well Carla is saying PLEASE no massive influx. As it is we have a steady stream of extremely well-educated flowing in while jobs are being lost by the thousands - has been this way since 1999 at least -- and so at last looking, I found myself, till I became highly specialized again, cmopeting for each job opening against always 400+ fully qualified candidates. No shit.

If you have transplanted deeply and are really committed and living at the crap wage levels of most of us here, you are more local than not. I am sure she is speaking of the ilk who flooded in here when Cali went first round down the crapper -sold their overvalued CA homes and came in and bought up real estate helping to drive up the values to current obscenity.

And LOCAL landlords ate it up with a spoon, I might add. So there's fungus at home as well.... I think the point is that it's hard enough as it is, let's not get a tidal wave. Bolinas has stayed sweet as can be for a long-long time by dint of a collective friendly welcoming attitude, but a dearth of signs that stay put.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is children. I would like to see my city be more kid-friendly. I certainly DON'T mean more detached three-bedroom homes with big yards and multi-car garages and lawns etc. As my music teacher used to say, with his nose high in the air, "For those that like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing that they like."

But I take sad note that the city's K-12 population is constantly declining. I think that children are an important part of the city culture. Urban kids rock. I wish we could bring more people to live in our city who had, or wanted to have, children. I think it would add to our livability.

Here's a take that I'll bet you haven't heard. Where do people visit here? How many do a major vacation and don't go to Newport?

I grew up there and have never met anyone selling anything Oregon from there wasn't a total crook. You learn to expect that. More and more I've seen their influence bubble up to Salem, and, the posting title is what you get.

Seriously. I love Sam Adams, but when he ran I was depressed for a week when I found out he was from Newport. People were telling me to get over it and I would say, "you don't get it. this means he's a total liar". Now look at where we're at.

I thought I'd be able to prove this nasty correlation wrong, when I recently started dating, arguably, the most famous lesbian in Oregon (remember Rev. KD?). A very principled lesbian, a woman of the cloth...surely I had put the sad trend to rest. Then she started telling me about her pyramid scheme for selling websites!

Is it the water? I doubt it. Point being...do you really think it's only Newport, or that I just happen to know everything that happens in Newport? If the latter, then one should not be surprised at the attitude Carla describes.

BTW, it's hypocritical to promote our bike usage, while telling folks to take plane, train and automobile to come see it! Stay home, read the blog, then make your place as good as ours.

Posted by: Kurt Chapman | May 10, 2009 10:23:23 AM

Ah, but the Lewis and Clark Expedition was all about coming, seeing, MAPPING and leaving in order to pave the way for others to come and stay.

So, when you buy a grab bag, sight unseen, going through it a scientific activity? Rooting around in the thing could as well be called "the exploration of space" as calling The Corps of Discovery "a scientific mapping mission". And what would they have done were it not simple avarice? Oh. No diff.

Actually, the choice of "Eric Cantona" as a pseudonym pretty much tells you not to expect logic.

Which is to say Eric is the electorate, not a member of the circle jerk. Have some respect. Was it the "circle" or "them crazy mufu'ers" that made this blog worth well over $1 million? Hmmm. Wouldn't you say KATU has about the same natural sized blog audience? Funny how their iron-fisted enforcement of PC correctness as caused their value to drop below BO. Maybe the un-PC speech doesn't detract? Maybe it's the attraction?

And from the other end, give Carla a break. She means well but just doesn't know what average peoples' lives are like. Just look. Put yourself there. Would you?

Ride Sally, ride, you right! The Vikings, the moon mission, the Corps...all pseudo science in the service of expanding empire. The giveaway? No follow-ups! How many probes we sent to Mars? That's scientific exploration! The moon? That's politics. Ditto the Romans first conquest of Britain. "We did it. Let's go home". Only empires do that. That's what we never, never learned in Viet Nam. In a colonial situation, the everlasting dichotomy between you and them is that you are there by choice, and they live there. When you can just walk away with the tee-shirt, your personal investment in the situation will never match the natives. (And those that get it will usually conclude, "exterminate the brutes").

You have to love the language. On the moon, it's "we come in peace for all mankind", even though the point was to let the Soviets know we could wipe out their society and would, yet the metaphor resurfaces that the whole activity was "the conquest of space".

Oregon is only better because it wasn't a part of the US for as long. In general, isn't it true that the longer a state has been in the union, the more of a cow pie it has become? AK is the only exception, but one can argue that petroleum accelerated the timetable. That and you start off behind the eight ball when you've suffered through Russian administration.

Joe Biden wouldn't disagree with that, truth be told. Corporate personhood an abomination? How about virtual corporate statehood? And the Dems elected a walking Delaware corp. in the middle of a fiscal crisis, caused by malfeasance. "Linens, toiletries, plumbing and automotive....going down!" Woolworth's nation.

Is ANYONE...Bill...ever going to differentiate between what is "human behavior" when overpopulated, and what is normal human behavior. There is no evidence that elite classes, warfare, crime or widespread pestilence ever existed before the population hit a saturation point. We would laugh, as that was much less than the density today. Regardless, homo sapiens behaves very different at different densities- my God, have you ever taught a class of 110 vs. 10- and all social evils are caused by technologically sophisticated humans using that technology to pursue raw biological imperatives, and chief among those is breeding whenever you think the grass is green and likely to stay that way for five minutes.

Karol, ease off on Joe White. He's just frustrated that white men can't get a break. You know, like those seven persecuted white men with Ivy League law degrees on the US Supreme Court.

And by the way, I hope your eventual offspring look like Joe White. It'll help them fit in.

Just wanted to agree with some earlier posters on two things:

1. Carla's argument, which reflects a longstanding Oregon provincialism, is almost indistinguishable from anti-immigrant arguments. It's based on the premise that the City ("nation") would be better off if those from other states ("countries") just stopped moving here because they have different values and are going to ruin the good thing that we have.

Both arguments fail to recognize the value that "others" bring when they come. Foreign immigrants bring an incredible work ethic and a willingness to work at hard jobs for low pay, contributing greatly to the national economy. Out of state immigrants to Oregon bring new perspectives and an open-mindedness that is sorely lacking among the natives (of which I am one). I mean, seriously, do you read Jack's Blog? Those idiots are either natives or have been here for decades, and they are the grumpiest group of "get off my lawn" types imaginable. Immigrants to Oregon are just more liberal on average. Portland (and Oregon) has not gotten bluer because the natives have seen the error of their libertarian ways, it's because "outsiders" have moved here. Count me in the camp that is damn glad they have.

1. The only way to keep people out is to not have such a kickin' city located in one of the most beautiful places in the world. Since we can't move Portland to, say, Ohio, and since I would not advocate for ruining our city to keep people out, seems the next best option is to simply plan for their arrival in a way that preserves what you and I love about Portland -- and shares it with others.

"they've exploited ("arbitraged") regional economic differentials to drive local home prices beyond the reach of local salaries. It's a recipe for resentment, and therefore an "issue"."

Brilliant - Lets just let in people who are poorer and less educated into Oregon so they can suck up the supply of apartments. We really don't want them buying houses, that would drive up prices (like that's a problem for the next 5 years.)

I am still standing by my point - What is wrong with someone who legally moves to Oregon and wants to do better and help others out economically?

The issue isn't really they type of people moving here. People tend to move where they will find like-minded people. Green liberals will move here.A bible-banging GOP type from Oklahoma will either not move to the Portland area or will quickly leave.

The issue is this: REGARDLESS OF WHOEVER moves here it will put more growth pressures in Portland; higher rents and/or home prices pushing more people out of the housing market. There will more traffic congestion & either land sprawl like LA or Seattle or, if we keep urban growth boundary, more of us being crammed into high-rises.

One thing so many people like about Portland (esp people from larger urban areas)is that we have the advantages of a big city; arts,nightlife,culture good restaurants, parks etc w/o many of the disadvantages like high crime, awful traffic or stratospheric rents.

Yes I know there is some of that (traffic on I-84,I-205 or 217, rents in the Belmont-Hawthorne area, some crime at eastside MAX stops) but nothing compared to LA or Seattle, or the bay area or places back E.like NY or Philly or Miami or Dallas or Houston.

We worry that will fall apart if more people move here.

I mean Seattle's a nice to visit but do you want to live there & pay the rents and deal with the rush-hour traffic?

The problem isn't the type of people moving here. They likely will fit in. Just as I wouldn't move to Tulsa or Salt Lake, a right-winger won't want to buy in Belmont.

The issue is that regardless of who moves here it will cause more stress on roads, more traffic, higher rents and home prices. More growth means either more of us stuffed into high rise apts or LA style sprawl with immeasurable commutes.

Much of Portland's appeal, at least to me, is that we have many city advantages; nightlife, arts, culture, restaurants, parks, architecture, events etc without many of the disadvantages (crime, traffic, hi rents) that plague larger urban areas like Seattle, LA, Dallas, Miami, Houston, Philly or NYC).

If masses of people (whover they are) come here that may not still be the case.

I mean Seattle's nice to visit but do you want Seattle rents or traffic?

Whoops. reposted as the my 1st post took well over 1 min to appear-my bad :)

Karol wrote:

"Why in the world would I want to know if I'd have anyone that looked like me around?"

Good question, why?

If you truly believed in a color blind society, you wouldn't care.

But your original statement went beyond wanting someone of your own color.

It was that you were unhappy that there were so many of another color.

Yes, that is racist.

So, tell us, what is the 'proper percentage' of white people that 'should' live in your town, Karol?

And how do you propose accomplishing this, Karol?

How many whites should move out to please you, and achieve the proper percentage?

Is there such a thing as having a city with too many blacks?

Would you move out of a city with too many blacks in order to make it a better city?

Joe White: Do you still beat your wife when she doesn't bring you breakfast in bed, or are you only beating her now when you get drunk?

So, tell us, what is the "proper percentage" of wife beaters that "should" live in your town, Joe?

Joel,

Why don't you try addressing the issue?

My question is valid. If Karol was unhappy at the percentage of whites that lived in town, then there must be a 'proper percentage' that she WOULD be happy with.

I want to know what it is.

And I'd like to know if she would move out of a town that had 'too many blacks' in order to achieve the same ideal percentage.

I think we can be quite sure that Joe White has never, ever lived as a member of an ethnic or racial minority. We can also be pretty damn sure that he's one of those folks outraged by President Obama's comments about "empathetic" judges.

KAROL: I am appalled by your racist comment about hair stylists. Anyone who believes that all hair and hair stylists are not created equal does not belong in This Fair City.

Joel,

Why don't you try addressing the issue?

Joe White, after you've lived some place--and I mean lived, not been a tourist--where you're a racial or ethnic minority, or where you struggle with the native language to manage the mundane activities of daily life, you might have a clue about Karol's experiences. I've done those things and I still struggle a hell of a lot to grasp what Karol's trying to explain.

Quit assuming your life experiences are universal. Try on some humility.

Joel,

Karol seems to have a pretty good grasp of the English language.

That was not her stated concern when she stated that it was the high percentage of white people in the area that she 'wasn't thrilled with'.

Maybe the reason you struggle to grasp what she said is that you'd like her to have said something less racist than what she did say. So you avoid dealing with what she really did say.

Take off your blinders, Joel. I know you probably think that 'well intentioned' liberals can do no wrong. Wake up blue man.

I'd like to know if she would move out of a town that had 'too many blacks' in order to make it a better city.

But I doubt we'll get an answer to that.

Joe White, the point is not and has never been Karol's verbiage; it's understanding her experience as a black American when I'm not one myself. It's the whole walk-a-mile-in-my-shoes thing. It's about empathy...something you've parked on the side of the road while servicing some screwball ideology and trying to decide what the meaning of "is" is.

I see. It's not about her 'verbiage', but about 'empathy'.

In other words, it doesn't matter what she ACTUALLY said, it only matters how we FEEL.

Joel, you may be disappointed to find that words still mean something.

If I had stated that 'I wasn't thrilled when I found out that the city I was moving to had a high percentage of blacks', you would no doubt see that as a racist statement, correct?

steve Novick wrote:

If we keep our protections against sprawl, and have dense development, then mass transit on a bigger scale will become more cost-effective. I'd rather have people move to a place with strong land-use laws and a commitment to transit, which means we'd have a chance of becoming a place where people drive less and less, than have them move somewhere else where they'd contribute to sprawl.

Wow, Steve! Such humanitarianism! You are willing to turn Portland into NYC to keep people from moving to Phoenix. I will take a more selfish stance. Let's keep Oregon mostly empty. We can tempt Beavertowners and Greshamites to move downtown and take the train. Then we can break up suburban asphalt and grow veggies.

As an 'Orygun Native' in the 80s I thought it was great the city was attracting vibrant immigrants from SoCal and the Northeast.

Then I left for about 20 years, military then law school then federal service (lots of time in DC).

Upon returning my only impression is how these transplants have completely swamped the Portland and Seattle of my youth.

No more working-class white ethnic neighborhoods of Italians, Greeks, Jews and Irish or Swedish and German areas. All gone--all f'ing gone--and a bunch of Boomer/GenX transplants from Cali and NY/Mass living in those neighborhoods.

Horribly sad. You used to be able to connect with people whose grandparents went to school with yours because you all went to the same Catholic/Lutheran/Orthodox church or synagogue, lived in the same neighborhoods and had common histories.

Now it's a bunch of hipster-doofus transplants waxing poetic about how great 'their' city is. F you, you destroyed what was great and attracted people here in the first place substituting a poseur hipster-dumbass culture.

C'mon Swine Flu and recession, thin the herd.

Spoken like a true liberal, kickerofelves.

Do you think the complexion of cities all across the country hasn't changed, KOE?

I mean c'mon. When I grew up, my neighborhood was filled with my dad's high school buddies and his relatives.

My Grandma lived across the street, my uncle across the back fence and another uncle 3 blocks up the hill. (And a brand new house carried a $75/mo mortgage).

Yes, it's changed in my town too, KOE.

But unlike you, I don't see some folks as 'acceptable' residents of my town and others as 'unacceptable'. I don't care about their ethnicity or their color or their religion.

I am amazed (but not surprised) how many of the blue folks on this site find some people unacceptable to live in the same town with them.

Karol simply thought there were too many whites. But at least she wasn't wishing for them to die by the flu.

Wow, I guess that makes her racist sentiment the 'moderate' view in the blue party. Scary.

"Joe White"

Oh for Chrissakes, lighten up, I was joking about the flu/recession thingy. I bet you're quite the pistol at parties.

I'll wager the complexion of Portland and Seattle have changed far, far more than most other cities of the same size. The story of these two cities in the last 25 years is nothing if not that of transplants migrating here. The unique nature of the migration has been mentioned in newspapers and magazines as well as travel guides.

Since when is anyone not allowed to be nostalgic about the city they once knew?

KOE,

You're allowed to be nostalgic. I never said you weren't allowed.

You blue folks are allowed to be racist and mean and wish someone was dead.

That's the nature of free speech. You're allowed.

Go ahead. Be who you all are. I'm allowed to point it out.

Racist? How you got that from my posts is frankly bizarre.

You made an argument about changes in cities yet were completely unaware of the notoriety of the change in Portland and Seattle that set them apart.

You took an argument/rant about the 'lack of' ethnic groups (even whites have ethnic groups) and call me racist.

You took an obvious smart-ass remark literally.

Here's what you do. Tomorrow morning, call your doc and ask to get your dosage increased.

Hope that helps.

KOE wrote:

"No more working-class white ethnic neighborhoods of Italians, Greeks, Jews and Irish or Swedish and German areas. All gone--all f'ing gone--"

The white ethnic neighborhoods are gone, and you are mad about it.

Why should the color or ethnicity of your neighbors matter to you?

Haven't they the right to live where they choose, just as you do?

Yes, it was a racist statement.

You want to now pass it off as humor ('You took an obvious smart-ass remark literally') , just as Wanda Sykes tries to cover her racism and hatred with 'humor'.

It doesn't work.

"C'mon Swine Flu and recession, thin the herd."

Wishing those people dead of the swine flu isn't humorous. At all. Get it?

"joe white"

I accept that's those are the interpretations the fillings in your teeth give you. Make that call to your doc, seriously. ;-)

KOE, I know it's hard for you to admit the racist attitudes and history of the blue team, but it's there for all to see.

The South was Democrat for 100 years after the Civil War.

The recent racist rants of Democrats like Jeremiah Wright are not a surprise.

The racism embraced by the current administration has emboldened the views of the left to a great degree.

joe white

My posts had nothing to do with politics or political persuasion. How you inferred any of that I have no idea, it was merely a commentary on the old NW versus now. You have reading comprehension problems or you may be the energizer bunny of stupid. I could care less which one it is.

KOE wrote:

"it was merely a commentary on the old NW versus now."

Yes, it was your rant on why the old neighborhoods of white ethnics were 'superior in culture'.

<h2>Your racism is something you apparently don't want to confront, but it fits in well with your party and it's history.</h2>