Steve - if you sit in New Shea (I won't acknowledge its store-bought name), you get a lovely view, beyond right field, of auto wrecking shops.

Part of the problem is that stadiums are designed to keep revenue inside. Every penny someone spends on a burger outside the stadium is a penny they're not spending on a burger inside the stadium, where the team/facility owner can control the revenue stream.

Now, someone could go outside the stadium and sell burgers for $5 less than the Beavers' concession contractor will and make some money.. but at the end of the day, there's a captive audience that can't shop around for the three hour duration of a baseball game.

FWIW: Shea Stadium may have been the worst facility of its kind in modern U.S. history. I believe it was the brainchild of Robert Moses, the ideologue who's work nearly destroyed New York City.

So maybe it's a bad analogy. But the point is well taken. An investment like this can go terribly wrong. Even if the upside is good, is the risk worth it?

I love sports. I love good stadiums. I want soccer. I want someone else to pay for them. I deeply suspect this isn't a very good public investment, regardless of the location. I hate problems like this.

Steve, I'm not sure the comparisons with New York's stadia area quite accurate. Shea is surrounded primarily by parking lots, not a neighborhood. I don't think the intent was ever to stimulate economic growth in the surrounding area when it was built (1964).

There are numerous places around Yankee Stadium that are hopping before and after games, particularly along River Ave., but it's mainly a residential neighborhood around the Stadium, and was so long before any idea that ballparks were engines for economic growth.

But having said all of that, I too remain skeptical of the claims of economic prosperity. I would love - LOVE - a new ballpark in Portland, and Lents could be a good location. But let Paulson fund it, paying the costs of replacing park space as well as construction. OR, as the previous poster suggested, let the city be a greater partner in the proceeds.

I used to live in the NY area, and went to many games at both parks (especially Shea). Steve's remarks are dead-on correct, as usual. I love going to Beavers games at the current park. I think the restaurants and bars around the park probably do receive a boost in business from the fans. The difference is that a ballpark can have an impact on existing businesses in the neighborhood, but I've never once seen a business environment spring up outside a new ballpark where there weren't existing businesses. Nick Christensen hit the nail on the head upthread, I think. You'll notice that all the new major-league parks have extensive food and drink options inside the park. New Shea even hopes to keep people in those venues before and after the games. It's pie-in-the-sky to think a new park is going to stimulate neighborhood business development.

Great column, Steve! I have always thought this had boondoggle written all over it, and am disappointed in Randy Leonard.

Jack, after a debate over what causes job loss and job growth at a legislative town hall last night, I typed "Amy's Kitchen in Oregon" into a search engine.

Not only are they still in Medford, they actually have a job opening!

I believe studying success stories like that make more sense than "we have this great idea, therefore it will work because we believe in it".

Why look to New York for an example? Look at PGE Park. How many thriving bars and restaurants in that area are anchored by the stadium? There are a few, but the area isn't exactly lively when compared to either downtown or Northwest.

I don't see any benefit to building a new stadium for the Beavers, but if we're going to do it, there have got to be better places than a neighborhood park in a residential area. (Expo Center and South Waterfront both spring to mind.)

Hey, you guys are going to love this! Everyone needs more money, check out http://makingmoneyatoz.com/ a no strings attached website where you can search and add money making ideas and read comments from others who have tried the idea. If any of you have a money making idea you would like to share, you can add it for free with the link provided http://makingmoneyatoz.com/submit.php

Steve, One correction about activity around Shea:

In the early days, Shea Stadium had the 1964 World's Fair right next to it, but I doubt we'll be able to do anything like that in Lents. Not even Sam could make those numbers fly.

  Speaking of numbers, there are some Portland restaurants, etc...that survive in part by being near PGE Park. Of course if we peel one of these teams away we could set up a situation where there is too much downtime at both locations and we lose the PGE businesses while not gaining any in Lents.

   I hate the way politicians think restaurants and bars just grow like the lawn with enough seeds. They seem to have no interest in the real world. As long as they get an opening day photo op out of it, they're off to the next gig.

  They act like the people who would attend the Rose Quarter restaurants, etc...are currently locked in their homes with no place to go. It's a mirage.

 Lents would do more than not develop Lents. Moving baseball out of the PGE Park area could kill businesses there. This plan has been 10 million shades of dumb since Day One.

  The only encouraging thing I see here, is that your post indicates you are preparing to run for Mayor. Randy introduced you for the Senate run - this time you could be on your own.

Is it too harsh to say the whole idea behind the stadium in Lents seems to be more like a high stakes version of pocket picking than anything else? Some outsiders come in and give us flash and dash to distract us, and before we know they're down the road again and we're standing there, broke.

I'm going to give the locals the benefit of the doubt on this and assume their intentions are in the right place. They believe this kind of project will over the years provide Portland in general, if not the effected neighborhood(s) specifically, an icon of growth.

There's probably some sort of subliminal relationship between those in the general public who desire a major league baseball team for Portland and the thought that this proposed stadium takes the city three of four steps down that road. Picking our pockets while promising us future glory for a status many Portlanders want makes for great public relations and can sway some opinions with no facts required.

Still, Steve is far too nice to even imply something I'll state clearly: While the intentions of those involved are probably well-meaning, when outsiders with ties to the last presidential administration come to town saying they'll make us hundreds of millions if only we give them tens of millions, I get suspicious. Damn suspicous.

Even the best-intentioned close friends and associates can be blinded when it comes to large sums of cash.

Steve for mayor? I'm there.

BTW I favor using public money for professional sports if and only if the community OWNS the sports franchises that will use the facilities a la Green Bay, or if the public money is in the form of high interest short-term secured loans to the team owners.

One data point to add. Mid sized stadia seem to have more longevity than larger ones. The one right near Shea, on Staten Island, is the #1 choice for the American Cricket League, which no one could have imagined even two years ago. So, I'm not sure about the comparison.

BTW, Portland's cricket is getting pretty righteous!

Add-on to the last post...

If we really want to fund development projects in distressed neighborhoods, lets pay for clean-up, infrastructure improvements, and building the clubs, small theaters, and restaurants we hope major building projects will create, since we're told that's where the economic development happens. Just cut to the chase and leave out Shea Stadium West.

Steve,

I love baseball, but not sure I would get over to Lents to see many games, or spend any money in the surrounding area.

Randy L. may be a great guy to have next to you when the shooting starts, but I would keep him far far away from your spending accounts.

I got a lot of information from this site. flowers

Who the hell let the spammers in?

If it ain't Sam it ain't spam!

I used to live across the street from PacBel park and I think it suggests that there will be positive, economic knock-on effects for the neighborhood, IF the city does the hard work to revitalize the area at the same time, as SF did with China Basin.

You can't build a park and get a new neighborhood, but you can build a new park and neighborhood, and the park will support the neighborhood's ongoing development. That's my take, at least.

I agree with you Steve - on Randy who I also respect - and your view of the Lents stadium. However, in the case of the Lents deal, I would take it a step further. Not only will the stadium not be effective as an economic development tool, funding it will result in losing other opportunities for economic growth.

A very a clear trade-off is being requested by proponents of the Lents deal. To build a stadium, a significant loss in affordable housing investment and small business development is required.

It has been suggested that that loss of affordable housing in Lents will be made up elsewhere to ensure "no net loss of affordable housing". Putting aside core concerns about whether or not the city's existing commitment to affordable housing is robust, this promise expands the scope of any decision on stadium development beyond the purview of the Lents URA advisory committee.

If this deal is allowed, not only will Lents give up its ability to develop affordable housing, other urban renewal areas will need to program money away from their present economic development plans to make up for the affordable housing shortfall in Lents.

In terms of economic development, it really reads as a lose-lose to me. A poor investment for Lents and a loss of economic investment in other parts of the city.

Steve Novick:

I am 100% convinced that if the New York Mets can’t bring economic development to their part of Queens, the Portland Beavers aren’t going to bring any economic development to Lents.

Bob T:

Again, that shouldn't matter. The answer should be "No!" for this. Period. Once you start tweaking around with with possibilities of economic development, and oh, maybe this particular plan and incentives will work, and so on, you play right into the hands of people who shouldn't get the money anymore than if they were Safeway executives asking taxpayers to build the next Safeway store. You need to get over those urges to "manage" economic activity in this way so you can tell people that, "You see, this is governing".

I was hoping the PGE Park scam was a lesson, but here we are with a corporate welfare deal pushed by Leonard and progressive super-hero Sam Adams. After all that talk about corporate welfare, you got scvrewed by your own people. That figures. There was rally weeks ago over the new bridge design. Where's the progressive rally protesting this corporate welfare?

Bob Tiernan Portland

Ian:

I hate problems like this.

Bob T:

What problem? Saying "No!" to this should be quite easy to anyone understanding basic economics and committed to a free enterprise system. There's only a "problem" for people who support micro-management of everything so often that they've lost all common sense.

Again, there's no problem.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Carl Fisher:

Steve could you believe Church missed third base? I'm still not over that...

Bob T:

Forget that -- should J.C. Martin have been called out after the throw hit his wrist?

Bob Tiernan Portland

Steve, great post! I don't know randy Leonard so can't comment on what a great guy he may, or may not be. Anyone who only knows of him from the overt shenanigans going on for Paulson and the Timbers/Beavers stadia would probably not agree on Randy.

The argument shouldn't be about whter Lents neighborhood could benefit, it should rightfully be that ANY Urban renewal dollars should not be utilized anywhere for private sports team stadia.

By engaging in the specifics of the Lents 'deal'; Randy and the proponents now have you willing to discuss where the deal 'might' work. The whole premise of taking public dollars to shore up this boondoggle is the camel's nose under the tent.

Kurt Chapman:

The argument shouldn't be about wheter Lents neighborhood could benefit, it should rightfully be that ANY Urban renewal dollars should not be utilized anywhere for private sports team stadia.

Bob T:

The argument should be whether or not Urban Renewal programs have become something other than what they were originally intended for. They ara goldmine for corporate welfare types (whether a stadium owner or mixed-use building owner).

Sorry, but such a stadium deal fits right into the general description of a valid project using current UR mindsets. That's what happens when politicians start redefining things and voters respond not by thinking about real issues but about whether or not it'll be "cool" to have an "openly gay mayor of a major city".

This is a progressive pile, so you clean it up.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Jefffrane, What about the Bullpen Tavern here? Back in the 70s I used to go there with my co-workers to unwind during a hard day of work. I'd always drop by before seeing a soccer game in Civic Stadium and the place was jammed. What players the NASL had starting with Pele.

   Anyway, my point is a lot of these places define the true soul of a city and they take decades to grow. Now they want to tell the Bullpen Tavern that their name no longer makes sense because some rich kid wants a new baseball stadium?

  Our city council is too quick to throw out what makes Portland great, in favor of wide-eyed schemes that could ultimately bankrupt the city.

 Have you been to South Waterfront? It's like one of those futuristic movies where they find the ruins of a civilization.

  Look what happened to the Virginia Cafe. That place was legendary in its original location and the city planners crushed it. Now they have a big hole in the ground and a project that's in real financial trouble.

 I doubt if Randy or Sam loses any sleep over the Virginia Cafe - they're on to the next dramatic scheme, hoping that places like the Bullpen Tavern are just going to appear. They have no concept of how long these things take to become part of Portland's soul. They just hop from one expensive failure to another.

  Remodeling PGE Park is a little different because we just did that several years ago, and we still haven't paid it off.

Now we want to do it again, and end baseball there. They want to take something that has worked fine for decades and break it into two pieces. Where's the brains? Where's the respect for the Bullpen Taverns of the world?

Look what happened to the Virginia Cafe. That place was legendary in its original location and the city planners crushed it.

Not to defend the loss of Virginia Cafe, but I think that was the work of Tom Moyer, not "city planners." He bought the entire block (in which Virginia Cafe was a tenant) from the owner with his own money to build a high-rise. And then ran out of money when the economy collapsed. As for the hole in the ground, that's a stalled project -- a half-finished foundation of a future high-rise with underground parking. If it ultimately fails, the city can always buy in and turn it into an underground parking structure with a park and maybe a restaurant on top.

I'm still not convinced that major league soccer and minor league baseball can't work in the same venue. (Of course, I don't need to be convinced; it's note like this scheme will ever go to a public vote.) Yeah, PGE Park would need to be modified (retractable seating, among other redesign work), but it would be a lot cheaper than trying to build a brand new stadium elsewhere.

Okay, my knowledge of Park Avenue West is limited. I wouldn't be surprised if it has the usual Portland public/private stuff at some level. All kinds of trading blocks and rights to do this or that, but as far as a private citizen buying land and trying to build something, I'm not against that. And I'm not piling on about the economy, except to note that the biggest recession in our lifetimes does seem to be a bad time for unnecessary spending - and that does apply to this Paulson deal.

 You wonder if major league soccer and minor league baseball can coexist in PGE Park. I'd say so, because that's what's happening now - once you get past the notion that this is really major league soccer.

 Here's the ironic part: If the city planners put a gigantic burden of debt on this, it could actually threaten both teams. And please don't bring up any Paulson guarantees. Derivatives were supposed to be safe too.

 Keeping both teams at PGE Park not only makes sense, it could be the only way this can work.

   Finally, if the council keeps sprinting from one boondoggle to another, we could eventually face a day of reckoning as a city. One of these projects could bring the entire thing down, especially with the huge X factor of the unknown ahead.

   We should be prudently preparing for real emergencies and not manufacturing them. Did anybody notice LA had a quake a few days ago, and Mexico City just had one?

 Why don't our city leaders stop spending so much time trying to ruin us financially, and actually prepare in case we face something serious.

 Maybe we should stop catering to the upper crust of society, and start worrying about the earth's crust.

 Okay, that was stupid. But you get my point.

There is important new information that surfaced this past week which dramatically changes the options available to the city -- and for the better.

Back in January, Paulson told the city that a new soccer-specific stadium averages $120 million, which is the reason he gave for not pursuing that option. Unfortunately, the city's soccer task force never did any fact-checking, because it turns out there is an MLS-ready, soccer-specific stadium in Montreal that opened in May, 2008, at a cost of $13 million, in U.S. dollars.

That is not a typo. The venue is Saputo Stadium (in French: Stade Saputo). It currently seats 13,000, but plans have already been drawn up to expand its capacity to 20,000, if and when the Montreal Impact USL soccer team is awarded an MLS franchise.

For photos and specs on Saputo Stadium, go to www.impactmontreal.com/tickets/stade.aspx.

So, if construction costs in Montreal worked out to $1,000 per seat, then it's a safe guess that a comparable, 20,000-seat stadium could be built here in Portland for around $20 million.

So, why not simply buy the plans from Montreal, and build a carbon copy here in Portland?

That would save the $85 million-plus earmarked for renovating PGE Park and building a new baseball stadium. And with the money already pledged by Paulson toward the current deal, the city's cost to build a new soccer-specific stadium could end up being less than $10 million. Plus, Paulson would end up with a soccer stadium that is superior to a renovated PGE Park.

It's not too late to make something good happen. So, spread the word about Saputo Stadium.

Kurt Chapman:

I don't know randy Leonard so can't comment on what a great guy he may, or may not be.

Bob T:

Because of this deal, no one should consider him a "great guy". Far from it.

Bob Tiernan Portland

So, are we talking real sports here, or are we talking "The Big Time", i.e., watchin' niggas livin' large?

It's pretty interesting that the same people that fault Sam for his indiscretions pay big bucks to watch every black rapist, thief and drug dealer that has game.

Check out twitter during the NBA finals. There's not a word about the teams. It's all LeBron and Kobe and the girl from the hotel... Yeah, athletics builds character.

You really think Randy is worse than Kobe? How do you treat each? Randy would love some of the "contempt" you show to Kobe! No, Randy's sin is being accessible. You all complain to store clerks about company policy, too, don't you?

Put another way, look at your responses to people that talk about real service, straight talk, and making sacrifices for the community. Kari will tell them about puppy dogs and unicorns flying out of his ass, someone else will call them a troll, and a third will say it's the dumbest idea they've ever heard. Just who do you think is going to end up in city gov? You've created a filter where you weed out anyone real. That leaves it to the hacks to get religion and come around. When they do, all you can do is either whine about their methods, or if they don't, ridicule them for failure (you didn't do that with Carter?)

I never had much truck with Fidel Castro until I started reading Blue Oregon. Over the years, though, it has borne out most of his social views. When I moved here, if I were to retool society, it would have looked like the Rainbow Family. Today, it would look like Castro's Cuba. Portland, and BO, literally give progressivism a bad name.

Mr. Donnell:

I don't understand your post. I sense that you're making some complaints that over-vetting people's qualifications for public service, focusing too much on personal lives and not enough on whether or not the person is a good choice for such service.

But that's just my guess. I couldn't follow your comments, nor did I really get the point you were trying to make. Would you please try to clarify what you meant and how it applies to the subject matter of Steve's original article? Thanks.

You are just delusional about Randy Leonard. The man long ago abandoned his roots in the community to join Vera Katz, Sam Adams and assorted others as tools of wealthy developers. He is also a bully who brooks no opposition. Not that this will keep Leonard from trying to exploit some faux workingman's street cred if he decides to run for governor.

Peter Apanel:

So, if construction costs in Montreal worked out to $1,000 per seat, then it's a safe guess that a comparable, 20,000-seat stadium could be built here in Portland for around $20 million.

So, why not simply buy the plans from Montreal, and build a carbon copy here in Portland?

Bob T:

Great --go tell Paulson. The taxpayers, city etc should have nothing at all to do with it other than to make sure Paulson does not use force or fraud from beginning to end, and raises his own money from volunteer investors as well as his own and his father's.

Bob Tiernan Portland

The SF Giants failed again and again to blackmail San Francisco into paying for their stadium.Finally the city and the Giants put together a much better deal, placing the stadium in the Mission Bay redevelopment area. It's one of the few cases I can think of that there actually is economic symbiosis because the neighborhood surrounding the stadium is an attractive destination spot in its own right.

The proposed Lents stadium is more like Candlestick Park, situated in a bad neighborhood. Folks hightail it out of Candlestick as fast as their high-end SUVs can carry them... The economic benefit to the Bayview/Hunters Point? zippola. The voters did approve a new stadium/shopping center for the 49ers adjacent to the old Candlestick (in a controversial elections fraught with allegations of fraud and ballot boxes found floating in the Bay) but that deal got kibboshed by the 49er owners.

In my opinion, PDX doesn't get much out of this whole deal, some musical chairs action with a couple of second tier sports teams. The biggest potential winners? Paulson and Nike.

Ron Morgan:

The SF Giants failed again and again to blackmail San Francisco into paying for their stadium.

Bob T:

The term "blackmail" can be overused when it comes to things such as sports stadiums or arenas. The point is still well taken, but what makes this sort of blackmail possible is the selfishness of city governments and all of the fans (and even non-fans in many cases) who buy into the propaganda that the presence of a private pro-sports team is vital.

All that the owners have been doing these years since about 1930 has been to take advantage of this tendency of the politicians and citizens to want a sports team nearby. Keep in mind that sports owners can't get a dime from taxpayers without the politicians doing it for them, often with the help of a majority of people who force the minority to fund it as well. But I do hesitate calling it blackmail because a city does not need a sports team or stadium. Problem is that once the government started with this sports corporate welfare, the cat was out of the bag and there's no reason to imagine owners no longer playing the game.

Blaming the owners for these deals allows drek like Sam Adams and Randy Leonard to escape most blame for continuing this scam system, so that progressives can still worship them and re-elect them or elect them to another office. Please show me how Paulson can take your money or land without the government doing it for him. You can't. So just see this as another New Urbanist or Smart Growth [Dumb Growth] kinda thing and you're okay. You see, you can point to it and say that here's an example of the government forcing the market to be "more responsible", or to "work" in the first place, in that the stadium isn't just plopped down in a suburb where traffic will increase, and with no small retail space allowed nearby and all that. Cities must have their sports teams to be "liveable" and to be important. And Paulson is laughing all the way to the bank.

I counted on a mostly progressive city council to shoot this one down, and to not even let it get anywhere. But they flopped, and flopped badly. Probably because these ideas fit right into their agenda quite easily after all.

Bob Tiernan Portland

As a baseball fan (GO METS!) and sports fan in general, I have been to many games in various locations; from the Big House in Ann Arbor to the United Center in Chicago to PGE Park right here in Portland.

I have gone out before and after games but almost always the venues of choice have not been located anywhere near the sports venue. This has been intentional. Mostly because I want to get away from the crowds heading to or spilling out from the game but also because I don't want to surround myself in a setting created for stadium goers.

Steve, you are spot on. The majority of sports fans go to a game to watch and experience the game. In my case, this involves about $40 for a ticket, $16 on a couple beers and just under $10 for nachos. When it is time to leave I don't have much money for anything else.

Very good post Steve.

A word on Randy's behalf: He has been a tremendous advocate for affordable housing on Council. Randy truly cares about poor people and addressing inequity, this bad idea aside.

I will say that I am infuriated that Randy would try and take affordable housing funds to pay for this AAA stadium. I am not sure why he has fallen in love with Paulson's scheme, but let's work to make sure that tax dollars are not wasted on this dubious enterprise.

Posted by: joel dan walls | May 24, 2009 8:00:41 AM

You are just delusional about Randy Leonard. The man long ago abandoned his roots in the community to join Vera Katz, Sam Adams and assorted others as tools of wealthy developers. He is also a bully who brooks no opposition. Not that this will keep Leonard from trying to exploit some faux workingman's street cred if he decides to run for governor.

No follow-up here says a bit. I think DLD hit the nail on the head. The recall will be when us delusional types decide to cast him to the sharks, if he doesn't talk, walk and think straight.

Vera knew the difference between self-aggrandizement and what was good for the City. Sam and co. don't. And Vera's legacy will be written to her discredit if she doesn't get real in July as well.

Caveat Radices!!! Do the identify politics, in-group politics as usual thing in July, and you will all be replaced. Don't expect that to sink in, but all you fat sugar daddies greasing their bum need to take major note. You will not like working with us. Pressure them to get real, or you will be. Replacing them with your cronies is not an option. You want business as usual? You had better make sure they do what WE think is the right thing. The alternative...well, "eat the rich", is a very mild understatement of what you'll find in their place if we have to replace the lot. This is going to be a hot, angry summer.

That gets impractical real fast. Look at it this way. How much would it cost to put full-time, airport style security on the OHSU tram? If people are in the street throwing ALL the bums out, do you think they'll just walk on by the major symbols of their ass reaming? Sam won't do what's best for Portland. He doesn't even know. That where it's fortunate that he's controlled by business interests. They WILL blink. Next month the action starts. This month we should be calling business interests' attention to which side their bread is butter on.

Their have been many studies done about the economic stimulus of sport arenas on the local economy. They provide little or no benefit. The exception is one study in San Diego where the stadium was built with an additional $400 million going specifically to economic development in that neighborhood.

What the City of Portland is asking for right now from Lents is to steal the funding from economic development and toss it to subsidizes a multimillionaires toy baseball team.

I am a little disgruntled that I am agreeing with Bob Tiernan on this. I pray this doesn't make me a republican.

Dan Newth:

Their have been many studies done about the economic stimulus of sport arenas on the local economy. They provide little or no benefit.

Bob T:

And there are many other projects that never come close to being what was promised, but I need to add that even if such studies showed that most or all of these stadiums provide a lot of benefits, it's still wrong for these deals to be made.

Dan Newth:

I am a little disgruntled that I am agreeing with Bob Tiernan on this. I pray this doesn't make me a republican.

Bob T:

You have no reason to be disgruntled. All you're doing is showng that you are principled enough to resist the temptation to support these projects by not buying into the stale nonsense about how they allegedly trigger all kinds of economic activity, while the team owner laughs all the way to the bank and the politicans get to satisfy their egos. It has nothing to do with being a Republican (I'm non-affiliated), or even a Democrat, but about having good, basic economic sense on the matter.

Bob Tiernan Portland

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