Brown Is The New Black

Anne Martens

Oregon has a rich history of racism, starting with statehood, where the voters chose not to allow slavery and not to allow black people either. And with each successive round of immigration (leaving aside that African-Americans didn't exactly voluntarily emigrate), Oregonians have loudly protested that "those" people don't belong here, and they're ruining everything.

There has been more and more anti-immigrant sentiment lately. And by anti-immigrant, I mean anti-Mexican. I'm sick of it. It's time to call this what it is: racism.

Bless the Blue Book for including quotes like this, from 1885, "it is apparent that the Chinese are a curse and a blight to this country, not only financially, but socially and morally." (p.347)

And then there's Jim Ludwick, 2006, who writes in last Saturday's McMinnville News Register, "The fact is that current immigration policies that allow in 2 to 3 million legal and illegal immigrants per year are overwhelming our public schools, our public health systems, the criminal justice system (about 30 percent of the inmates in federal prison are noncitizens), the livability of our communities and eventually our natural environment." The language is a tad toned down, but the intent and meaning are the same.

Mr. Ludwick also recently sent a letter to the Secretary of State's office, protesting the provision of the Spanish-language "How to Start a Business in Oregon" guide at the Mexican Carousel of Information events. Given that he believes most immigrants are "poorly educated and unskilled," (from the same article as above), I guess he has low entrepreneurial expectations. (Self-promotion: click here for my take on Madeleine Albright's rather different expectations for immigrants).

Mr. Ludwick is the founder and President of the artfully named Oregonians for Immigration Reform, which is holding a Capitol Steps rally at noon on Friday. With Rep. Linda Flores, who must make an extra-effort to overcome the ill effects of her Hispanic surname. And KPAM's darling, little Lars herself, Victoria Taft. Word is Mannix and Saxton will be there too, each hoping to appear hateful enough to snatch up votes with vitriol.

Ms. Taft has collected letters from the four people who listen to her radio show, demanding that state services require applicants to show proof of citizenship. (More self-promotion, tongue-in-cheek this time: what would Jesus do?) Of course, it is already required by law that you be a citizen to be eligible for state services.

The immigrant bashers would prohibit people from access to information (like how to start a business), to education (punishing the child for the sins of the father), to drivers licenses (because they prefer unsafe roads), and to all of the resources that can assist people in becoming productive members of society, preventing exploitation, and improving our communities.

Immigration isn't an easy issue, and it won't be solved by soundbites, by building a fence between here and there, or by making information accessible only to a (white) elite. Especially when much of Oregon's agricultural economy depends on immigrant labor. The Statesman Journal and the Oregonian aptly note this in their editorials.

And let's be clear. The immigrant bashers are not bashing Russians or Vietnamese or any other large community of immigrants in Oregon. Nope, they've focused their bile on Mexicans. I wonder why.

  • Annie Lover (unverified)
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    How long do you think it will before someone posts talking about the "War on Terror?"

    I don't often like Kevin Mannix but when he asked if we should check someone's id when they were bleeding on the street, I didn't hate him as much.

    Saxton is a bastard. He would keep children form going to school because of something their parents did and what alot of the business community encourages. He's a Bastard and is I could I'd give him cancer.

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    OK Anne, I'm game.

    Ms. Taft has collected letters from the four people who listen to her radio show, demanding that state services require applicants to show proof of citizenship.....Of course, it is already required by law that you be a citizen to be eligible for state services.

    Help me out here. Is there any effort being made by any state agency to enforce the above Of Course?

    The immigrant bashers would prohibit people from access.....to drivers licenses (because they prefer unsafe roads)........

    Actually, "They" and I suspect that people are being issued motor-voter sign ups without verification of eligibility. (Of course as a Democrat I should just shut up about this inconvenient little detail........as "We" will probably benefit.)

    ......Especially when much of Oregon's agricultural economy depends on immigrant labor. Actually, the nursery owners, and strawberry field owners, and the rest of the Farm Bureau crowd are all atwitter at the thought that consumers might wind up paying a tiny bit more of their average annual food budget (say a couple of percentage points) for crops harvested by people receiving a living wage.

    I have some extensive experience picking fruit and vegetables in my youth, so I don't want to hear the old chestnut about Americans won't do the work.

    And let's be clear. The immigrant bashers are not bashing Russians or Vietnamese or any other large community of immigrants in Oregon. Nope, they've focused their bile on Mexicans. I wonder why.

    I'm calling strawman here. The reason that Mexicans are the targets is that they have around two million illegals entering annually. The Russians and Vietnamese and whatevers, are small potatoes by comparison, and I suspect that you're just using the last paragraph as a rhetorical flourish.

    <hr/>

    Is there a lot of demagoguery occurring? Yes, on both sides.

  • John Smith (unverified)
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    So why are closed border people racist and open border people all embrasing and loving?
    Some of the best racist types I know of are other than white.
    I also love so see America women supporting open borders with Mexico. This is because the Mexican nation is so anti woman, anti abortion, and anti freedom of speech and anti freedom of expression (Unless the expression is to colonize the USA as a part of La Reconquista de la Norte). Look up the human rights history for Mexico. It is dark and dirty. You just have o love the disinformation people of the world. Open borders is about freedom, freedom to violate the law???? Laughing.

  • Don (unverified)
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    I agree it is really all about racism. If you read the postings on a conservative blog such as danielisright.blogspot.com, although they like to claim they're not being racist, they really only talk about how much they hate Mexicans.

    Its a funny dichotomy on the R side, half the party likes illegals because they're cheap labor and the other half is racist and hates them. Hopefully they'll kick the shit out of each other and weaken all their candidates.

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    Pat--there are a few responses I wanted to give to your post, but in Oregon and particularly Portland, Vietnamese and Russian are at the top of the list of residents from other countries. What proportion of undocumented immigrants they make up in the state is much less clear, but those two countries were not picked out of a hat.

  • Anony (unverified)
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    In my humble opinion, anyone who states illegal immigrants are a drain on services has two rational policy avenues:

    1. Wave a magic wand, expel them from Oregon, and start paying $6 for a head of lettuce, or

    2. Support a restructuring of the revenue system that includes a sales tax.

    Regardless of the fact that many agricultural employers withhold taxes from immigrant workers (...not that it actually winds up at the Department of Revenue), if you want any kind of tax dodgers to pay for public services, sales tax is the way to go. In California, illegal immigrants, drug dealers, Enron executives, my tax-dodging-creative-deduction uncle... everyone pays the sales tax.

    So how 'bout it? Magic wand policy or sensible revenue solution?

  • bert (unverified)
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    Framing the discussion in terms of racism is just partially helpful.

    The immigration issue gets to the heart of what we want from the American State and how much and whom it should regulate.

    There are logical reasons to want to regulate immigration; and there are logical reasons and human rights reasons why immigration should be accepted.

    If you think the status quo is OK. I suggest that we should just open the boarders altogether and give all immigrants green cards. The working class should compete on a level playing field with immigrants; and immigrants who come for jobs deserve the same labor rights as people with papers.

    Alternatively, if you want enforcement or predictability, then it should be done right, fairly and with a minimum of ambiguity. Enforcement would have to focus mostly on employers who unfortunately have grown accustomed to the US's anything-goes labor relations. Employers who want to sponsor immigrant workers should not only have to document the legality of hires but should also be required to pay some portion of health and education costs associated with immigrant labor.

  • bert (unverified)
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    Framing the discussion in terms of racism is just partially helpful.

    The immigration issue gets to the heart of what we want from the American State and how much and whom it should regulate.

    There are logical reasons to want to regulate immigration; and there are logical reasons and human rights reasons why immigration should be accepted.

    If you think the status quo is OK. I suggest that we should just open the boarders altogether and give all immigrants green cards. The working class should compete on a level playing field with immigrants; and immigrants who come for jobs deserve the same labor rights as people with papers.

    Alternatively, if you want enforcement or predictability, then it should be done right, fairly and with a minimum of ambiguity. Enforcement would have to focus mostly on employers who unfortunately have grown accustomed to the US's anything-goes labor relations. Employers who want to sponsor immigrant workers should not only have to document the legality of hires but should also be required to pay some portion of health and education costs associated with immigrant labor.

  • (Show?)

    Enforcement would have to focus mostly on employers who unfortunately have grown accustomed to the US's anything-goes labor relations. Employers who want to sponsor immigrant workers should not only have to document the legality of hires but should also be required to pay some portion of health and education costs associated with immigrant labor.

    This is precisely my position.

    I don't want to build a fence.

    I don't want to keep the children from getting a primary or secondary education at the same price as other Oregon residents.

    I don't want law enforcement diverted to profiling brown skinned people or chasing them through alleys.

    I don't want anyone to be denied healthcare.

    I want the state and federal governments to demand that employers hire only legal workers, and enforce that single law.

    If you believe that "It's really about Racism", a bald assertion regarding my motivation does not promote meaningful dialogue. I'm sure that you can find some racists out there somewhere, but skip the blanket statements.

  • Betsy Wilson (unverified)
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    Anne -- Do you support any limits on immigration? Or not? Where you do decide to draw the line? And why?

    As far as what's likely to happen if we crack down, if our produce prices increase, we could drive farmers out of business and all eat Chilean and Brazilian fruit.

  • Misha (unverified)
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    A funny sidenote:

    One of my all-time favorite things I've heard an elected official say comes from our very own Secretary of State Bill Bradbury...

    When asked about Betsy Close's virtual obsession with the epidemic of illegal immigrants voting in Oregon elections, Bill Bradbury said something like, "We live in a country where we can only get half of the eligible population to vote. I only wish people cared enough about voting that illegal immigrants would risk deportation just to cast a ballot!"

    Of course Bill was joking, but his quip was poignant. Why can Betsy Close and her Republican cohorts get away with harping on a "problem" that commonsense tells us is absurd? Race-baiting meant something different 20 years ago in the American South. I guess this is what it means today. Something to think about...

    One final thought -- last Spring, I spoke with a group of senior citizens about the President's plan to privatize Social Security. After my presentation, a member of the audience angrily protested that the REAL cause of the Social Security shortfall was illegal immigrants claiming benefits. How did he know this? Because he had been standing in line at the Social Security office the week before and he heard people around him speaking in -- gasp -- SPANISH! Enough said... the rest of the audience was convinced!

    So I politely reminded everyone that many American citizens, people who have worked hard and have earned Social Security, also speak Spanish. (I didn't bother to mention that many illegal immigrants work with fake Social Security numbers and wind up paying in to the system but never collect a dime.)

    Race-baiting is alive and well indeed.

  • Jeanne Reid (unverified)
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    Anne, Here we go with the "RACE CARD" again........It's not about color, it's not about JUST MEXICANS, it's about ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! Illegal means Illegal! People who have crossed our borders without permisson are nothing more than law breaking criminals. I live here in NC and I have seen so many US citizens lose their jobs to outsourcing. They have lost not only their jobs, in some cases their HOMES. Then the jobs left, like construction work, are taken by ILLEGALS! The county I live in has the highest unemployment rate in the state and the number of home foreclosures is at a record high. Every construction site you see has a couple American citizens and HERDS of illegals working there. American citizens deserve these jobs that LAW BREAKING ILLEGALS are taking! The employers of these illegals are no better, they are law breakers, too! If your job was given to an illegal alien and you could not find another job, lost your home, and your dignity, you might feel differently. Not only do the illegals cost us our jobs, we are footing the bill for the FREE services provided to them like healthcare, welfare, anchor babies, schooling, etc., it goes on and on! There are over 3,000 families right here in my small county who are waiting in line for apartments for low wage or no wage families. These are not bums who won't work, these are people who lost their jobs to China or illegals! We have people living under the bridges here, also. Maybe when the illegals start taking food out of your family's mouths, then you will get it, why Americans are so fed up with this INVASION! I honestly don't give a damn if you are white, brown, black, or green, if you broke our laws and you are sucking our system dry(welfare, food stamps, WIC, healthcare), then you are a criminal, plain and simple. Give up the race issue, Anne. People are not gonna buy that one this time!

  • Karl (unverified)
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    Anne, saying it's all about racism is not fair. A case could be made that the people who want the underpaid illegals to come in and do the "dirty and hard work that we (white) Americans won't do" are the real racists. I don't think making that case helps either.

    Agricultural workers are not making much more now than when I was doing it 30 years ago. Those were great short time jobs for young people and those who just loved to follow the crops. It's not just the farmers being greedy. We've got NAFTA and GAT to thank for putting the pinch on the farmers to pay less and less. Rising energy and transportation costs might help to solve some of that problem, but we need to protect our farmers from unfair competition so we can grow our own food and pay a living wage.

    Most people these days are seeing their incomes shrink and are worried about their standard of living. They worry about what kind of standard of living their kids will have. It makes them nervous to see illegal immigrants come in and drive wages and income down more. It may be unreasonable to blame the immigrants, but it is understandable.

    Enforcement of immigration laws should be focused on employers. Attempts to stop the inflow accross the border have proven fruitless and heartless.

    I'm sure there is some racism involved (isn't there always), but that's not what it's all about.

  • Jeanne Reid (unverified)
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    Anne, Do you know what "La Raza" means? It stands for "The Race". You wanna see some racism? Go here and see RACISM: http://www.wehategringos.com/index2.shtml Make sure you have your speakers turned up so you can hear the Mexicans cussing the Jews, the white man, and anyone else who is not of "The RACE"! Just watch the intro, they say this is their land and they are taking it back. Watch the intro and see THE RACISM from the poor little ILLEGALS who only want a better life!

  • Lisa (unverified)
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    Anne, I am a Latina; the color of my skin is white, not BROWN. The Brown definition when referring to a person of Hispanic origin, is something which the Chicanos/La Raza made up in order to separate themselves (DESEGRATE) from the white population, you don’t have to believe me, just check your books. See, white people are not the only racist, we Hispanics are as much, if not, more racist. But, the point you people miss is the most important one of all, the “anti-illegal” groups are not against only Hispanic-illegals, we are against any person, regardless of race or national origin, who entered this country ILLEGALLY. Don’t you dare believe that all of us Hispanics, who followed the law and came to this GREAT country legally, will follow the “pro-illegal” crowd. The Racist card is getting old, you guys need a new one.

  • Brown (unverified)
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    Yup, you sure are right, Lisa. Gotta make sure you slam the screendoor on the way in.

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    As someone who got state services, I can assure you that I had to give documents that proved I was a citizen, including copies of the SS cards for myself, my husband, and our daughter.

    During the few weeks it takes to process everything, this information is supposed to be verified. As far as I know, it is verified, although I couldn't assure you that happened every single time.

    I do grow tired of all the attitudes we have towards people who come into the country illegally. Yes, they broke the law. But the only thing different between them and our ancestors is that they were unlucky enough to be born after those laws were passed here in the U.S. Had the laws been here earlier, many of us wouldn't be here either.

    I think we really have to completely re-do our policies, actions, etc. in regards to immigration.

    We've made it way too difficult for people from poor countries to become a citizen. The process is so long and convoluted (as well as expensive).

    There should be an program to naturalize all illegals currently in the country. There's no way we're ever going to be able to deal with all those currently here. Why not allow those hard working, honest people become citizens?

    Those who have been causing problems in our country would serve their time and then be deported. And I'm not talking about those with minor drug charges or the like. I'm talking about assaults, repetitive crimes, attempted murder, rape, major drug dealing, etc.

    The majority of those coming here are honest, hard working people who just want to live in a country where they have certain rights, aren't persecuted, etc. Is that so much to ask? Wouldn't we want the same?

    By making these people citizens, they're now protected by all the laws we have, including those covering workers. That means they would have to be paid at least minimum wage-- which is something many employers of illegals do not do.

    They also now have to full pay into the system. While a good number use fake SS numbers, which means they pay SS, Medicare, and income tax, many are paid under the table.

    Many of these people also have family members who they are sending the bulk of their money to each month. If they became citizens, they could move those family members to the U.S. This means they would now be spending their money in the community they live in, rather than sending it outside the country.

    A good book to read on illegal immigrants is "Deciding to be legal," which is about a Maya community in Houston. It's written by the honors into to sociology teacher that I had at the University of Houston. She followed illegal aliens throughout the process of them coming to the United States, getting a job, sending money back to their families, etc. I'm sure there are other good books out there, but I really liked that one.

    I've always thought it was funny how the people who spout off the most about illegal immigrants only talk about those from Mexico, Central America, and South America. However, there is a huge number of illegal aliens coming across the Canadian border from the Middle East and Asia. They'll often come across as a visitor from Canada and never go back.

    They are typically well educated and affluent. As such, no one notices them. This is also why they are often not included in the statistics for illegal aliens in the U.S. I wish I could remember the information from the sociology class, as they showed the numbers of non-Hispanic illegals is a lot higher than reported.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    What's hispanic? There are Mexicans, Colombians, Venezuealans, Domininicans, Costa Ricans, Chileans, Cubans, Argentinians, Bolivians ... they are of many colors. Some are whites of european descent. Some are of african descent. Most are indigenous americans. But hispanic? What makes someone hispanic? How many people if asked their nationality say they are Europeans?

    Race has never been about skin color. Race is about social status and it is a social construct, not a genetic or linguistic one. Racism is not directed against hispanics.

    Don’t you dare believe that all of us Hispanics, who followed the law and came to this GREAT country legally, will follow the “pro-illegal” crowd.

    Of course not everyone who has an ancestor who spoke spanish is going to be sympathetic to people who are poorer and darker than they are.

    The fact is almost all of us have done something illegal in our lives. The idea that there is something special about illegally crossing the border to look for work and a better life that makes it a terrible crime is largely driven by the race of those doing it. That is what makes this an emotional issue.

    Not many people are concerned about Canadian illegals, of which there are a fairly large number, since they can't distinguish them from white Americans unless they speak French. The fact is if you scratch the surface of the anti-immigrant crowd you will see the same extreme hostility demonstrated here towards spanish speaking poor people who don't look white. Legal, illegal - that isn't really the issue.

    The Bush administration has stopped enforcing the laws against hiring illegal immigrants. The INS is too busy fighting terrorism you know. So while honest employers still go through the charade of confirming employment status, the dishonest ones just wink.

    The truth is that illegals largely pay more taxes than they will ever receive in services. But the anti-immigrant crowd will keep repeating that lie because they desperately want to believe it. Its a way of justifying their discomfort without having to admit their racism even to themselves.

    The Racist card is getting old, you guys need a new one.

    Racists have always said its not about race. Even while they were putting up signs over separate drinking fountains.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    What's hispanic? There are Mexicans, Colombians, Venezuealans, Domininicans, Costa Ricans, Chileans, Cubans, Argentinians, Bolivians ... they are of many colors. Some are whites of european descent. Some are of african descent. Most are indigenous americans. But hispanic? What makes someone hispanic? How many people if asked their nationality say they are Europeans?

    Race has never been about skin color. Race is about social status and it is a social construct, not a genetic or linguistic one. Racism is not directed against hispanics.

    Don’t you dare believe that all of us Hispanics, who followed the law and came to this GREAT country legally, will follow the “pro-illegal” crowd.

    Of course not everyone who has an ancestor who spoke spanish is going to be sympathetic to people who are poorer and darker than they are.

    The fact is almost all of us have done something illegal in our lives. In that sense we are all illegal. The idea that there is something special about illegally crossing the border to look for work and a better life that makes it a terrible crime is largely driven by the race of those doing it. That is what makes this an emotional issue.

    Not many people are concerned about Canadian illegals, of which there are a fairly large number, since they can't distinguish them from white Americans unless they speak French. The fact is if you scratch the surface of the anti-immigrant crowd you will see the same extreme hostility demonstrated here towards spanish speaking poor people who don't look white. Legal, illegal - that isn't really the issue.

    The Bush administration has stopped enforcing the laws against hiring illegal immigrants. The INS is too busy fighting terrorism you know. So while honest employers still go through the charade of confirming employment status, the dishonest ones just wink.

    The truth is that illegals largely pay more taxes than they will ever receive in services. But the anti-immigrant crowd will keep repeating that lie because they desperately want to believe it. Its a way of justifying their discomfort without having to admit their racism even to themselves.

    The Racist card is getting old, you guys need a new one.

    Racists have always said its not about race. Even while they were putting up signs over separate drinking fountains.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Do all you guilt-ridden, lily-white, do-gooders really believe that you are helping some 'poor, hard-working soul' make a 'better life for their family'? Or do you just want to make sure there's a gardener out there you can afford? What's the matter? Too cheap to pay an American to do the job?

    Be the apologists for the 'oppressed' if you must, but try not to make it cost me any more money than it already does, would you please? I'm trying to feed 3 kids, by myself, on $200 a week. If you don't think illegal labor drives down wages for the poor and working class, come swing a hammer for a week or two. One of the jobs that Americans won't do, my achin' behind! I'm 50 years old, worked the fields from Bakersfield to Shasta, swung a hammer for 25 years and I'm here to tell you, ILLEGAL immigration is a MAJOR PROBLEM!

    Maybe you've never had to wear anything other than a 3 piece suit to go to work. I was topping onions in Stockton in 1971. I carried picket signs for the United Farm Workers. I once shook Caesar Chavez's hand! What do you ivory tower idiots know about work? NOTHING, that's what you know. Did you know that Caesar Chavez himself would call the INS on an illegal? I didn't think so. He did, on more than one occasion.

    Get over the race thing already, that's NOT what this is about, unless you want to believe the REAL racists like MALDEF, La Raza (The Race)and LULAC. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, over 60% of illegal immigrants HAD JOBS when they left their home countries. They came here to get a BETTER job, to make MORE money regardless of who's job they took or who they hurt. Do you think they cared about me when they took MY job? Don't bet on it.

    I went to the site www.wehategringos.com and saw with my own eyes the hatred, vitriol and contempt that these 'poor, hard-working, good-hearted people' have for the U.S., and every citizen thereof. If you don't have the 'cojones' to go see for yourself what your inviting into your country, your home and your family don't come crying to me when your kids are FORCED to speak Spanish in schools or to get a job. You morons deserve what you get.

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    The two main (not-Pat) proponents in this thread for the anti-immigrant crowd are using a site put together by a white supremacist group to demonstrate that this really isn't about race.

    Interesting tactic.

    Pat, I know this isn't about race for you. So far as I can tell, it's about exploitation. But I sure don't like the company you've got on that side of the field.

  • Victoria Taft (unverified)
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    Anne, I and my four listeners will be at the state capitol with the letters from my four listeners on Friday, March 24 at noon. Will you be there?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Sal,

    It's not an anti-immigrant crowd, it's an anti-ILLEGAL immigrant crowd. You guys always leave out that word ILLEGAL. I wonder why...

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Oh and Sal,

    Could you provide any proof of your accusation that the people that put together wehateGringos is a White Supremacist group? Any proof at all? I'll be waiting all day to see it.

    In the meantime go to the site and watch the film clip! I dare you to watch it! I never HEARD of that site until I came here last night. But it was quite an eye-opener, wouldn't you say?

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    The web site itself is evidence enough. And no, the concern is not merely illegal immigration, or folks like yourself would not also be smearing MALDEF and other groups as "Anti-American" -- particularly given that their charter is much broader than immigration issue.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    How, exactly is the website itself evidence of 'White Supremacism'?

    To smear someone would be to say things about them that are untrue. Can we agree on that? Let me let Mario Obledo speak for himself.

    Mario Obledo was born in Texas in 1932, the son of Mexican parents who had moved to the United States in 1915. From 1983 to 1985, he was the president of the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC). He is also the co-founder of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF), which has become the most influential Hispanic advocacy group in the United States. MALDEF promotes open borders and mass immigration; rights and privileges for illegal aliens equivalent to those afforded to U.S. citizens; free college tuition for illegal immigrants; lowered educational standards for Hispanics; and the right of criminals to vote in American elections. Opposed to allowing the police to enforce immigration law violations, MALDEF charges that Americans who oppose unrestricted immigration are motivated by "racism and xenophobia."

    Obledo has articulated his radical racial agenda by stating, "California is going to be a Hispanic state, and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. They should go back to Europe." "Eventually," he adds, "we [Hispanics] will take over all the political institutions of California."

    If that doesn't qualify as a racist agenda, what in your opinion would?

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    It's totally accurate to say that OFIR is an anti-immigrant group, or possibly, an anti-Mexican group, since they are following the consulate around the state and trying to intimidate all participants - legal or not. They are calling for a 70 percent or greater reduction in legal immigration to this country. Also, when Jim posted OFIR to various web directories and links pages, he chose to use the following phrase to describe OFIR "Views immigration as an attack on American sovereignty". You can verify this by doing a Google search on the phrase "Views immigration as an attack on American sovereignty".

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    The subject was MALDEF, Sal. Would you care to address the statements made by the the co-founder of that group?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Sal? Sal? Are you there, Sal? Where'd you go, Sal?

    I'd really like to hear your views on Mr. Obledo's statements, Sal.

    Sal? Hello?????

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    Actually, I was responding to this statement:

    It's not an anti-immigrant crowd, it's an anti-ILLEGAL immigrant crowd. You guys always leave out that word ILLEGAL. I wonder why...

    And, again, OFIR also leaves out the word ILLEGAL when they say the following about themselves: "Views immigration as an attack on American sovereignty".

    I wonder why...

    As for Obledo's quote, the only sources I've found that confirm that quote are found on pages with titles such as "MEXICO IS AMERICA'S REAL ENEMY!!!". Can you provide a link to Obledo's full speech on a reasonably credible site?

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    And for the record, here's my position on illegal immigration...

    I'd like to see a decrease in the number of undocumented workers and a smaller increase in the number of documented workers. I support laws to strengthen penalties and enforcement on coyotes who bring undocumented workers into the state. I support working with the federal government to develop agriculture and industry-friendly documented guest worker programs that protect the rights of workers and farmers in Oregon, and the safety of Oregonians.

    Bye for now.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Mario Obledo, founding member/former nat'l director of Mexican-American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), former CA Sect'y Health/Welfare on Tom Leykis radio talk show "We're going to take over all the political institutions in California. In five years the Hispanics are going to be the majority population of this state." Caller: "You also made the statement that California is going to become a Hispanic state and if anyone doesn't like it they should leave - did you say that?" Obledo: "I did. They ought to go back to Europe."

    If you'd like to hear the audio from that show, you can find it here:

    audio

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    C'mon Sal, don't leave until you hear it for yourself.

    You asked for legitimate documentation. I have provided what you requested, for ALL to hear. I'd like to hear your response.

  • Tina (unverified)
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    you lost credibility calling Victoria Taft a racist. i've known her all my life and she's far from being a racist. before you start slinging your libelous arrows you better know who, really know, who you're talking about.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Sorry for the incorrect link. I guess my computer skills are a little lacking. Let's see if I can get this right this time.

    AUDIO

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    There we go! Click on the link above to hear Mr. Obledo's comments.

  • (Show?)

    I think Pat and Anne are both right: it is racist and it is a legitimate security concern. It's also an issue of social justice, human rights, our economy, globalism, NAFTA -- am I missing anything?

    To me, it's the perfect story of demagoguery: no matter what your hobby horse, legit or not, you can make hay with immigration. So racists finally have a socially-acceptable way to punk the Mexicans. Isolationists can try to close the borders. Social justice folk can point out that immigrants are victims, not perps. And economic justice folks can point out that exploitation of immigrants is what supports our economy.

    All of the constituencies have different problems they're trying to solve, and so immigration remains hopelessly intractable.

  • Jeanne Reid (unverified)
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    This is not about RACE, people, it's about the laws of this country. ILLEGAL MEANS ILLEGAL, PERIOD! If you broke our laws by sneaking into our country, then you need to be deported, PERIOD. If you choose to come back LEGALLY, then WELCOME! No matter what these reconquista groups say, this is AMERICA, not MEXICO. It's ours and it will stay ours. VIVA LA MIGRA!!!!!!!!!

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    Did you know that Caesar Chavez himself would call the INS on an illegal? I didn't think so. He did, on more than one occasion.

    I doubt it. There weren't many illegals breaking strikes in Delano and by the time the lettuce strikes started Cesar wasn't the guy picking up the phone to call the INS.

    I worked for the UFW and we organized protests against the INS for harassing union members. Cesar saw the INS as a tool of the growers. When there was a strike, they loosened up to let more illegals in and to break the strike. So we also organized demonstrations against the INS for failing to enforce the immigration laws and prevent the growers from hiring them as strikebreakers.

    But the critical issue was that the growers/employers used people's illegal status to exploit them. And that does have an impact on other workers whether they are trying to organize a union or just negotiating individually for better wages and working conditions.

    You will see a lot of employers of illegals trying to increase the penalties for getting caught. It just adds to their power by increasing the workers' fear.

    ""California is going to be a Hispanic state, and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. They should go back to Europe." "Eventually," he adds, "we [Hispanics] will take over all the political institutions of California."

    If that doesn't qualify as a racist agenda, what in your opinion would?"

    How is making California "a Hispanic state" racist? How is it more racist than someone saying California is an english-speaking state and anyone who doesn't like it should leave?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Caller: "You also made the statement that California is going to become a Hispanic state and if anyone doesn't like it they should leave - did you say that?" Obledo: "I did. They ought to go back to Europe."

    Is that not a racist statement? 'Go back to Europe'?

    How is it more racist than someone saying California is an english-speaking state and anyone who doesn't like it should leave?

    Because California is part of America, not Mexico. California's first Governor was a Mexican who didn't want the territory under the control of Mexico City, either.

    When Mexico LOST the war, the territories now affectionately referred to as 'Aztlan', were BOUGHT and PAID FOR, making those territories part of the United States. After 160 years of American investment, American advancement and American progress, are we supposed to just hand it over to the border-jumping hordes that literally have invaded the Southwest? California by itself would comprise the 7th largest economy in the world. Do you think America is going to give that up without a fight? I wouldn't bet on that if I were you, because the people of the United States, the rightful owners of that land, are not going to sit back and take this any longer.

    By the way, once the UFW had solidified their hold on the Central Valley, the INS became a very useful tool in the UFW arsenal. I think our disagreement there is in time-frame only.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    By the way, once the UFW had solidified their hold on the Central Valley, the INS became a very useful tool in the UFW arsenal. I think our disagreement there is in time-frame only.

    I doubt it. I think its a recognition of the practical realities of the role of the INS. The UFW never made any distinction between union members with papers and those without. The INS did - they harassed union members, papers or not, and they ignored strikebreakers.

    Because California is part of America

    So what? There is a very large spanish speaking population in California, as there is elsewhere in the United States. Predicting that at some point they will make up the majority of voters has nothing to do with race. The city of Miami is already mostly controlled by hispanics, as far as I can tell its still part of the United States. Boston never became Irish either.

  • JJ Ark (unverified)
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    <italic>you lost credibility calling Victoria Taft a racist. i've known her all my life and she's far from being a racist. before you start slinging your libelous arrows you better know who, really know, who you're talking about.</italic>

    Don't like "racist"? Fine...Howsabout unoriginal, sycophant, and just plain silly?

    And now for the rub: I agree with Victoria on this one issue...as much as it pains me to fall into her company at all. At least in effect if not principle.

    Simple truth is that illegal means...well...illegal:

    Main Entry: il·le·gal Pronunciation: il-'lE-g&l Function: adjective : contrary to or in violation of a law : ILLICIT, UNLAWFUL <an illegal="" contract=""> <illegal dismissal=""> —il·le·gal·ly adverb

    thats from websters.

    Our nation grows stronger by immigration. Its no secret that our nation has been made successful by immigration. However, that was (mostly) legal immigration.

    If you want another amnesty, I would be happy to go for it, but i really want to see a companion piece of legislation that effectively shuts down the hiring of illegals, and the importation of illegals, not to mention some way of policing BOTH north and south borders.

    There is a fiscal impact that seems to come up very rarely in my liberal circles: bilingual education. WE, the taxpayers, are paying for this education. This disproportionally effects the smaller cities and rural areas. I don't believe that we can turn bilingual education off overnight, nor should that be our short-term goal, but at least we can do our best to get folks paying their share into the system to support the education of their children. Paying under the table (wether truly under the table, or the employer pocketing the tax money) means that these folks aren't contributing to the taxpayer pool and that in turn, effects us all.

    If we must, then lets use the Amnesty as a stepping stone. Granting amnesty, getting these folks on the legit tax rolls, and then stemming the tide of incoming illegals would be a step in the right direction.

    Then lets look at making it easier to bring folks into the country, legally.

    We are a nation of immigrants, and we need immigrants to make this nation of ours work, but we need to make sure that we police the borders, allow in as many as we can handle, and assimilate them into our collective American culture as quickly as possible.

    Please don't bother calling me a racist...yo hablo espanol, and I conduct daily business in Spanish, and don't particularly care what race or nationality a person is.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    We'll just have to agree to disagree on the UFW then.

    Because California is part of America.

    So what? There is a very large spanish speaking population in California, as there is elsewhere in the United States. Predicting that at some point they will make up the majority of voters has nothing to do with race. The city of Miami is already mostly controlled by hispanics, as far as I can tell its still part of the United States. Boston never became Irish either.

    What you say is true. The city of Miami IS mostly controlled by Hispanics, Cuban-American Hispanics to be more precise, who are proud Americans and more patriotic than ANY other ethnic group. I'm not too worried that Miami will try to secede from the Union. Pretty much the same story for Boston. Of course, Cuba and Ireland don't have an 1,800 mile border with us, either. Plus we never defeated them in a war that cost them half of their existing territory.

    As for California and the rest of 'Aztlan', Mexico and Mexicans have made it very clear that they still consider this area as part of Mexico. It is Mexico's stated intention to reclaim that land through massive migration, legal or illegal.You don't have to believe me, just Google these...

    MALDEF MEChA La Raza Aztlan

    Come back and tell me what you learn.

  • The Oregon Conservative (unverified)
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    As possibly the very first of the "four" proud people to sign the Operation ID petitions, (all the way from Springfield, OR), I see that not once did you make a distinction between "illegal" Mexican immigrant and legal. Apparently, it doesn't matter to you that non-citizens are not asked for proof of citizenship or that non-citizens are choosing our legislators. Americans do not aspire to, less much are allowed to, go into other nations and vote for their leaders.

    You leave a lot of facts out in your article. That's pretty convenient when you have no facts to support your point of view. But, one fact remained thorughout what you said. You have nothing but contempt for the state of Oregon or for your country. You sound as if you hate your own country (assuming you are a citizen). Victoria has never sounded hateful nor falsely accused anyone. You have.

  • NWW (unverified)
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    Ah, Oregon - the Arkansas on the left coast.

    Whites people debating with white people about racism - only in Oregon!

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    "Apparently, it doesn't matter to you that non-citizens are not asked for proof of citizenship or that non-citizens are choosing our legislators."

    Link? What evidence is there of rampant voting by non-citizens? This same canard of an argument for disenfranchisement was tried in Washington in 2004, as part of the ridiculous election contest. Do you know how many non-citizen votes they found, statewide? TWO. And one of them turned himself in the next day, realizing his mistake.

  • Annie Lover (unverified)
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    Annie and I are getting ribs on Friday. Sorry she can't go to your pitiful rally on Friday.

    For the Illegal is ILLEGAL crowd. If your father steals from a store while you are with him do you have to face the same punishment? So if my father dragged me across the border ILLEGALLY them I can go to school. I have to swim back to Russian or Veitnam. Not Mexico becasue we aren't racists.

    JJ Ark I think you've lost creditability with me because you have been friends with Ms. Taft all her life and didn't realize she was a racist.

  • (Show?)

    God I love this crowd!

    Don't answer questions on their merits. Just play the Race card, and remember, only Heterosexual Male Members of the American Hegemony can be racist. Everybody else is oppressed (or their great-great-grandma was) and oppressed people cannot by definition be racists.

    God I love this crowd!

    Oh yeah, and Annie Lover I resent your exclusivity regarding who might love Annie. We all love Annie...Or at least I do.

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    Dang!!! I forgot to include Rght Wing Female Talk Show Hosts in the potential Racist pool, but I think that about covers it.....

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    You're half-right, Pat. Racism is an expression of power, and if you're being oppressed, you lack that power. Perhaps the term you're looking for is simply prejudice, which indeed knows no color or status.

  • (Show?)

    Oh yeah, and if the dictionary doesn't agree with you.....just make up your own definitions in the middle of the debate.

    rac·ism n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

    <<<<<<<online dictionary

  • asdf (unverified)
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    It's not racism, it's people coming here, abusing our health care and other support systems, being a burden to our schools, not paying their fair share of taxes, raping and killing our children and nuns, bringing drugs to our communities, and being released from our jails within 3 hours after being arrested with 1 1/2 lbs of meth while having outstanding warrants for other arrests 2 years ago. Shit is broken and one of these days the people supporting these lawbreakers are going to unbreak it.

  • (Show?)

    you don't cite your dictionary Pat, which is fine--since a) your own definition provides for racism as the imposition of power (which is what discrimination is), and b) it illustrates that there is no one source from which to draw definitions. How about SNCC, 40 years ago?

    As for white America, perhaps it can stop crying out against "black supremacy," "black nationalism," "racism in reverse," and begin facing reality. The reality is that this nation, from top to bottom, is racist; that racism is not primarily a problem of ''human relations" but of an exploitation maintained, either actively or through silence, by the society as a whole. Camus and Sartre have asked, can a man condemn himself? Can whites, particularly liberal whites, condemn themselves? Can they stop blaming us, and blame their own system? Are they capable of the shame which might become a revolutionary emotion? We have found that they usually cannot condemn themselves, and so we have done it. But the rebuilding of this society, if at all possible, is basically the responsibility of whites: not blacks.

    http://www.toptags.com/aama/voices/speeches/pwrracism.htm

    Bit of a shame 'asdf' had to come by and obliterate all the wounded protestations about the obvious racial component of the anti-immigrant putsch. The real truth couldn't be pent up for long, I guess...

  • BorderRaven (unverified)
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    To: Anne Martens, You failed, in the first paragraph, by refering to ancient history, and in the second, by not using the term "anti-illegal-immigration". However, since you mention racism, I won't allow you to call me a racist, for my actions against the people, who violate our immigration laws. I have no control over the race or country of of orign of the illegal immigrant, that is de facto, or matter of fact, in the control of the immigrant. If the immigrant chooses to obey the laws, get a passport and visa, then wait their turn to come here, then I have no objection to that person.

    I limit my actions to the illegal aliens and the employers who hire them. I am also extending my actions to those who aid, abet, support, transport, feed, or harbor illegal aliens.

    Let's be clear, legal-immigrants have an ID card, and qualify for employment and certain services.

    Illegal-aliens, have certain rights: the right to leave. Illegal aliens should be processed through the local police departments, and identfied in a national database, for case-by-case processing, and anyone connected to a crime, should be prosecuted, and imprisoned, before being deported. Third-time offenders, should be on a bounty or reward system.

    To: Annie Lover, I'm guessing you are young and living with mom and dad, so you don't pay taxes, or have a job. Fact is illegals, should be eligible for emergency medical care, if their life depends on it, and their home-nations should be billed 50% for services rendered, then the hospital should make an ID record of the person, then the person could be processed on a case-by-case basis. Preferably repatriated to their home county, since they have been proved to be destitute, in the USA.

    As I recall the son, of a woman who died trying to illegally reach the Florida coast, was deported back to Cuba.

    To torridjoe, Driving the streets, of Oregon and particularly Portland, how many Vietnamese and Russian men do you see standing in the streets, seeking day labor, because they lack the documents, required on the DHS I-9 form? http://uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/i-9.htm

    To bert: We already regulate immigration, but illogically, we don't enforce border security. Everone body has human rights, you, me the legal immigrant, and the illegal immigrant. The Bill of Rights, is not a list of our rights, but a list of restrictions placed on our elected government protecting our rights. In fact the Tenth Amendment, in the last four words, retains the power of the people, over the elected govenrment. Immigrants, whether legal or not, do deserve the same labor rights. Illegal aliens, hired by an employer can sue for workers compensation or pay disputes. I only wish they would ask for the same pay I ask for $17 an hour. I predict a day, when employers have become dependent on illgal immigrants, who have gained citizenship, only to have them unionize, and demand better pay and benefits. Empolyers are required to document anyone they hire, using the DHS I-9 form.

    To Pat Ryan: BRAVO! :)

    To Lisa: Don't worry, they ahve a deck of cards: race, sympathy, victim, dependent, co-dependent, etc. If you call their game, then they'll drop call you names, like: Nazi, Fascist, Xenophobe, Neo-Nazi, etc. Then there are the games people play: blame, poor us, poor them, my land, you damned global economic emperialists, minimize, LYAHF (let's you and him fight), maximize, sensationalize, exageration, you evil Colonialists, etc.

    They will do everything except accept blame for their actions.

    To Jenni Simonis: Disneyland, is a microcosim, of our society. Getting into Disneyland, is expensive, you buy a passport at the entrance, and in Japan, you must arrange a visit to Disneyland, through a travel agency. Disneyland, is also crowded, all food and labor, is imported, health care and education are exported. At Disneyland, most transportation is on foot, and you must stand in long lines to get a ride. Imagine if a large group of people found a way to sneak in, and after it was discoverd, it would be too expensive to expell them, Disneyland, handed them free passports?

    I already adressed the fact that illegals do have rights, they are paid $10 an hour or $100 a day, and they are protected in employment, can sue for pay disputes or injuries. Making them citizens won't improve their rights, except to give them the right to vote -- that should scare you. So, please, stop with the bleeding heart. Give them some "tough love", and help them go home.

    To Ross Williams: Get your DNA checked, we all have ancestors, from Africa.

    To Guy Pinestra: I've never met you, but I love you already.

    http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/ http://www.saveourstate.org/

    To Salvador Peralta: What "white supremacist" group put http://www.wehategringos.com/index2.shtml together? Let's not forget, that MALDEF's broad charter includes the Reconquista de Aztlan!

    To Jeff Alworth: NAFTA? What does NAFTA have to do with anything? Who sold it as a good idea? Who voted for it? Who signed the agreement?

    You should know that the illegal immigrant is exploited and victimized, from the time the coyote approaches them in the bus station or cafe, and at every step along the way. Everyone wants their money. Even those aliens returning home are victimized, by their own people.

    To Jeanne Reid: Nice sweet and to the point.

    To Pat Ryan: Don't forget their other favorite divisive word.

    Main Entry: big·ot Function: noun Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices - big·ot·ed adjective - big·ot·ed·ly adverbPronunciation Key

    More Information:  Audio

    Main Entry: big·ot·ry Function: noun Pronunciation: 'bi-g&-tre Inflected Form(s): plural -ries 1 : the state of mind of a bigot 2 : acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigotPronunciation Key

  • Marc in PDX (unverified)
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    does anyone REALLY belive that 10 million illegals are bankrupting our assistance infrastructure? i think i stil can do math and even if you inflate all figures of the number of illegals to 15 million that equates to 5% of the us population roughly. this assumes that 100% of illegals are getting MRI scans, liver transplants, and viagara prescriptions while never collecting on the payroll taxes they dump into the system (i'll take a stab here that at $7/hour they don't pay a whole bunch of income taxes). i suppose the wingnut xenophobes will trot out the cost to the prison system for all these bad illegals but then they seem to [email protected] on their tought on crime messages that tell me criminals hardly spend anytime in jail before being released. no matter what money you think you'll save by kicking out those nasty illegals you're just going to flush it down the toilet through the small business owners having to play ins agent for every single person they try to employ - think it's unconstitutional to NOT ask mr white guy for his birth certificate but turn around and ask mr brown skin for one? frankly i've got some mexican-american friends that are as 'white' on the outside as my scandinavian self.

    i personally think this whole thing is about a few crazies that get cheesed off because they have to press the english button on the atm or listen to the 'hit #2 for spanish' while trying to get through to the customer service line.

  • Victoria Taft (unverified)
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    Anne: I and my four listeners have secured a bus to come see our elected leaders on Friday. Can I interest you in a meeting? http://victoriataftkpam.blogspot.com/2006/03/weve-got-bus-to-go-to-salem-noon.html

  • (Show?)

    Going to Disneyland (a place of entertainment) and coming to the United States (which for many means a much better quality of life, less worries about their safety, etc.) are two completely different things. One is a huge country and the other is a small private entity.

    It's much easier to find those who snuck into Disneyland than it is in a country of nearly 300 million people. You can require everyone who visits Disneyland to have a ticket, wristband, etc. that is easy to check. They could change regularly, as they're used temporarily.

    Disneyland is protected with high-tech surveillance, security, fences, etc. We can't easily do that will our country-- we have millions of miles of borders. Many of them are in the middle of nowhere.

    And since our documents aren't so temporary (most people don't even have a passport), they're much easier to fake. Even if you check everyone for their "papers" (which I must say immediately makes me think of WWII), they can be faked.

    As far as rights for illegal workers...

    Actually, many illegal immigrants are not making $10/hour or $100/day. There are many that aren't pulling minimum wage. If they aren't paid for their work like they're supposed to, they have no recourse. Yes, they can turn in the employer, but that would also mean turning in themselves.

    They don't get breaks like they should. They miss out on many of the rights that legal workers have.

    This isn't about having a bleeding heart, so cut the crap.

    This is about the fact that our immigration policy has long been broken. There is no way we'll ever be able to find the millions of illegal immigrants and handle them all. We'll never have the people, the money, or the resources to do this.

    What we can do is offer citizenship to all those currently here. Fingerprints can be taken to see if they match up with unsolved crimes. Those who have caused problems here can be deported. The rest can stay and becomd tax paying, voting, citizens with full rights.

    At the same time we have to completely re-do our immigration policy. How we handle immigration and our borders is broken. Many of the people who come here illegally would happily do it legally if they could-- but we make it too difficult. We need to work together with immigrant communities, business leaders, communities along the border, average citizens, those who have gone through the process, etc. to come up with better policies.

    I know what it's like to have discrimination against your family because people assume they're an illegal. My husband was not born in the United States, but is a naturalized citizen. While living in Texas, as well as here in Oregon, people have treated him like he doesn't belong here. While he does speak English, it is with an accent and as such isn't as clear with his English as those born here. He's also obviously not "white." Whenever an accent along with a color of skin other than white is put together, people often jump to the conclusion that you're illegal.

    You'll notice that what Anne is speaking of isn't just illegal immigrants. It's also how those who are here legally are treated. It's how some want all materials produced by the government that aren't in English banned. Or children of those who are here illegally not be allowed into public schools, even when the child was born here in the United States.

    Anne was right in saying it's an issue of being anti-immigrant. Just ask those who speak with an accent and aren't white-- you're treated as if you're a second class citizen. It's typically different if you have an accent and are white, as you're automatically accepted as being here legally and from some "civilized country" like England, France, or Canada.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Hey Ross, what did you learn after Googling those four names? Or is your mind so closed to the truth that you couldn't recognize it if it bit you in the @$$.

    TorridJoe, You ask for proof of illegals voting? I think I might have what you seek. I'll post the verbatim transcripts along with the links to the actual audio so you can hear it for yourself. Fair enough, amigo?

    Art Torres, former CA state senator, currently Chair of California Democrat Party at UC Riverside 1/1995 "Que viva la causa! It is an honor to be with the new leadership of the Americas, here meeting at UC Riverside. So with 187 on the ballot, what is it going to take for our people to vote - to see us walking into the gas ovens? It is electoral power that is going to make the determination of where we go as a community. And power is not given to you -- you have to take it. Remember: 187 is the last gasp of white America in California. Understand that. And people say to me on the Senate floor when I was in the Senate, 'Why do you fight so hard for affirmative action programs?' And I tell my white colleagues, 'because you're going to need them.'"

    AUDIO

    Jose Angel Gutierrez, Prof. Univ. Texas at Arlington, founder La Raza Unida Party at UC Riverside 1/1995 "The border remains a military zone. We remain a hunted people. Now you think you have a destiny to fulfill in the land that historically has been ours for forty thousand years. And we're a new Mestizo nation. And they want us to discuss civil rights. Civil rights. What law made by white men to oppress all of us of color, female and male. This is our homeland. We cannot - we will not- and we must not be made illegal in our own homeland. We are not immigrants that came from another country to another country. We are migrants, free to travel the length and breadth of the Americas because we belong here. We are millions. We just have to survive. We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. It's a matter of time. The explosion is in our population."

    AUDIO

    Joe Baca, former CA Assemblymember, currently member of Congress at Latino Summit Response to Prop 187 UC Riverside 1/1995 and Southwest Voter Registration Project annual conference in Los Angeles, 6/1996 "We need more Latinos out there. We must stand up and be counted. We must be together, We must be united. Because if we're not united you know what's going to happen? We're like sticks - we're broken to pieces. Divided we're not together. But as a unit they can't break us. So we've got to come together, and if we're united, si se puede (it can be done) and we will make the changes that are necessary. But we've got to do it. We've got to stand together, and dammit, don't let them divide us because that's what they want to do, is to divide us. And once we're divided we're conquered. But when we look out at the audience and we see, you know, la familia, La Raza (the family, our race), you know, it's a great feeling, isn't it a good feeling? And you know, I started to think about that and it reminded me of a book that we all read and we all heard about, you know, Paul Revere, and when he was saying, 'The British are coming, the British are coming!' Well, the Latinos are coming, the Latinos are coming! And the Latinos are going to vote. So our voices will be heard. So that's what this agenda is about. It's about insuring that we increase our numbers. That we increase our numbers at every level. We talk about the Congressional, we talk about the Senate, we talk about board of supervisors, board of education, city councils, commissions, we have got to increase out numbers because the Latinos are coming. Because what's going on right now, with 187, the CCRI (CA Civil Rights Initiative against affirmative action), and let me tell you, we can't go back, you know, we're in a civil war. But we need to be solidified, we need to come together, we must be strong, because united we form a strong body. United we become solidified, united we make a difference, united we make the changes, united Latinos will win throughout California, let's stick together, que si se puede, que no? (it can be done, right?)

    AUDIO

    Vicky Castro, former member of Los Angeles Board of Education at Southwest Voter Registration Project Conference, 6/1996 "Que viva la raza, que viva la raza (long live our race)! I'm here to welcome all the new voters of 18 years old that we're registering now in our schools. Welcome, you're going to make a difference for Los Angeles, for San Antonio, for New York, and I thank Southwest for taking that challenge. And to the Mechistas (MEChA students) across this nation, you're going to make that difference for us, too. But when we register one more million voters I will not be the only Latina on the Board of Education of Los Angeles. And let me tell you here, no one will dismantle bilingual education in the United States of America. No one will deny an education to any child, especially Latino children. As you know, in Los Angeles we make up 70% of this school district. Of 600,000 -- 400,000 are Latinos, and our parents are not heard and they're going to be heard because in Los Angeles, San Antonio and Texas we have just classified 53,000 new citizens in one year that are going to be felt in November!"

    AUDIO

  • justchange (unverified)
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    Wow! I can't decide if this is valuable discourse... or a waste of time.

    Why are there borders? Why are there requirements for crossing those borders?

    Why do we have walls and lockable doors on our homes?

    Personally, I'm willing to (and have) allow(ed) just about anyone in need to come into my home and share my shelter and provision, modest as they are. In turn, I have had the same kindness shown to me, many times.

    Which of us would not prefer that such visitors enter, by permission, through the front door?

    What do we call those who would enter our homes un-invited, through an un-secured door or un-guarded window and take things they do not own or that were not rightly offered to them?

    This is my home.

    We, of all origins, built this house.

    We need to make sure that those who would join us are safe and healthy. After all, we have gone to great lengths to eradicate (or control) some terrible diseases, and to structure a societal culture and internal defense system (police, medicine, etc.) to provide a tolerable level of safety.

    It's always easy to demonize others when they're de-humanized with labels like "illegal alien", "Jew", "Liberal" or "Conservative". It's more difficult when you live and work with neighbors without running them through the checklist of our personal prejudices, first.

    Every country (as I'm aware) has immigration laws. Many even have emigration laws. (Require permission to leave... ask one of our recent Russian immigrants.)

    There ARE valid non-race-based reasons for our immigration laws and why they should be enforced.

    Those who are already here extra-legally need to be accommodated humanely, yet fairly.

    If (since?) they be allowed to remain, it would be both wise and humane to have them go through the same or similar processing steps as any prospective legal immigrant, in order to remain. This allows them the dignity that comes from removing the stigma associated with their current status, as well as, screening for potential health problems for themselves, their children and their new neighbors (us) and screening for other needs, or beneficial personal assets they may have to offer our (a word which also includes them) society.

    It's time to tone down the rhetoric on both sides of this debate and begin to seek solutions. Neither side will ever get 100% of the demands of its extremists. And no one benefits when we stand on opposite sides of the street throwing stones across... except those who would rob our homes behind our backs while we're hurting each other.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    The Illegal Alien Problem

    The first word in the description of this problem is ‘illegal’. That’s plain enough, and reason enough to round them up and ship them home, regardless of their country of origin. Folks getting all worked up about ‘racism’, threatening Federal lawsuits if the illegals don’t get their way. This problem is not about race; it’s about LAW. If U.S. citizens are not allowed to ‘pick and choose’ the laws they will obey, why should an illegal alien have that option?

    Let them go through the process to enter this country legally, and I will welcome them with open arms. My ancestors were also part of the ‘huddled masses”. The difference is, they jumped through ALL the required hoops to legal citizenship. We should expect no less from this bunch.

    I grew up in the construction trades. My father was a roofing contractor who was able to pay a fair wage to his employees, and support a family of 8 without a second income. The 60’s middle-class dream. In the 70’s I entered the workforce, hoping to replicate my father’s example. I was able to earn a decent living, and did so for a decade.

    By the start of the 90’s, illegal immigrant labor in the housing industry had depressed wages to the level of the 70’s. Even today, an experienced construction worker makes no more than he did 25 years ago. No longer can a man expect to support his family as a tradesman, unless his wife also works and he can get a few jobs ‘on the side’.

    I have seen first-hand how illegal labor has driven down my income, to the point of having to get Food Stamps to feed my 3 children. Financial pressures are tremendous. I can no longer afford insurance, health or life. I tried to get Medicaid, but was told that I didn’t qualify, but if I was an illegal, I would be eligible for immediate benefits. I should have lied, I guess. Should a health crisis arise, I will be homeless, as will my kids. I have worked all my life for this American Dream, but it’s becoming a nightmare.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "our parents are not heard and they're going to be heard because in Los Angeles, San Antonio and Texas we have just classified 53,000 new citizens in one year that are going to be felt in November!"

    Yep - those damn legal immigrants who become citizens and vote sure are a problem.

    "By the start of the 90’s, illegal immigrant labor in the housing industry had depressed wages to the level of the 70’s."

    I'm sorry, but this is not true. Construction wages have been depressed by weakening union membership and government policies that have allowed non-union contractors to flourish. The wages are depressed even where immigrants (legal or not) make up a small portion of the construction trades.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Ross,

    Since I've spent most of the last 30 years in the construction trades from coast to coast, I think I can speak for what I've seen and experienced. Don't try to marginalize me with your obviously uninformed position. As far as your support of unions goes, my father ran a non-union shop and paid his men better than the union wage at the time. Organizers came to his place of business, and were chased off by his employees.

    And I like the way you take one sentence from several paragraphs to nitpick about voter registration. You and I both know that proof of citizenship is NOT required to register to vote. Some states will let you register with a utility bill!

    Go blow your socialist smoke up somebody elses kilt.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "There ARE valid non-race-based reasons for our immigration laws and why they should be enforced.

    Those who are already here extra-legally need to be accommodated humanely, yet fairly."

    I agree. We have immigration laws to limit the number of new people coming here to what we can accomodate and to prevent people who are criminals etc. from coming.

    But if you do google the internet or look at the discussion here, the "illegal problem" is defined as people who speak a different language "taking over" the country. That is racist. And in a racist environment, a rational discussion of immigration is very difficult to have. Not many people are willing to openly say the problem is that they don't like the people in front of them at the grocery store speaking spanish because then they would have to confront their own racism.

    Its not at all clear that the US economy is having a hard time absorbing our current immigrant population or the people who come here each year, legally and illegally. But that is certainly a point people can discuss. FAIR and the other racist groups that are leading the anti-immigrant battle avoid that discussion like the plague. It raises the possibility that the problem is not immigration at all, but the failure to adequately protect workers, non-immigrant and immigrant, with greencards and without.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "proof of citizenship is NOT required to register to vote."

    And we also both know there is no evidence that any significant number of people who register are not citizens.

    "to nitpick about voter registration."

    Apparently its nitpicky to point out that people are complaining about people who are American citizens registering to vote.

    "I think I can speak for what I've seen and experienced."

    As can anyone, it doesn't make them right.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    "And we also both know there is no evidence that any significant number of people who register are not citizens."

    Of course there's no evidence Ross, there's absolutely NO WAY to determine the citizenship of a voter.

    "Apparently its nitpicky to point out that people are complaining about people who are American citizens registering to vote."

    I notice you still have that problem with focusing on an issue instead of a soundbite. There's still paragraphs of verbatim transcripts that you fail to address.

    "As can anyone, it doesn't make them right."

    It doesn't make me wrong, either.

  • Levon (unverified)
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    One wonders if the immigrants picking our fruit, washing our dishes, and causing so much consternation among some were curvaceous Nordic beauties between the ages of 17 & 34 hailing from Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and the Netherlands - what impact it would have on people's perceptions of this issue?

    I, for one, would imagine large numbers of young suburban kids clamoring for jobs in the fields during the warm summer months.

    Ah, to be 14 years old watching Annika bend over to pick tomatoes. Now that would be a summer job to remember.

    There would probably be different discussions on this blog and the Websites would have a different.....ah, viewpoint.

  • JJ Ark (unverified)
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    To annie lover:

    "JJ Ark I think you've lost creditability with me because you have been friends with Ms. Taft all her life and didn't realize she was a racist."

    Did I have credibility to begin with? Ask Kari that question ::grin::

    For the record: Ummm...never met Ms. Taft. Don't like her. go back an re-read what I wrote.

  • jeanne reid (unverified)
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    This is just for you Anne Martens: http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~mecha/index.html EL PLAN DE AZTLÁN El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny.

    We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent

    Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlán.

    For La Raza to do. Fuera de La Raza nada.

    Program El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán sets the theme that the Chicanos (La Raza de Bronze) must use their nationalism as the key or common denominator for mass mobilization and organization. Once we are committed to the idea and philosophy of El Plan de Aztlán, we can only conclude that social, economic, cultural, and political independence is the only road to total liberation from oppression, exploitation, and racism. Our struggle then must be for the control of our barrios, campos, pueblos, lands, our economy, our culture, and our political life. El Plan commits all levels of Chicano society - the barrio, the campo, the ranchero, the writer, the teacher, the worker, the professional - to La Causa.

    Nationalism Nationalism as the key to organization transcends all religious, political, class, and economic factions or boundaries. Nationalism is the common denominator that all members of La Raza can agree upon.

    Organizational Goals 1. UNITY in the thinking of our people concerning the barrios, the pueblo, the campo, the land, the poor, the middle class, the professional-all committed to the liberation of La Raza.

    1. ECONOMY: economic control of our lives and our communities can only come about by driving the exploiter out of our communities, our pueblos, and our lands and by controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and resources. Cultural background and values which ignore materialism and embrace humanism will contribute to the act of cooperative buying and the distribution of resources and production to sustain an economic base for healthy growth and development Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by nationalism and the Chicano defense units.

    2. EDUCATION must be relative to our people, i.e., history, culture, bilingual education, contributions, etc. Community control of our schools, our teachers, our administrators, our counselors, and our programs.

    3. INSTITUTIONS shall serve our people by providing the service necessary for a full life and their welfare on the basis of restitution, not handouts or beggar's crumbs. Restitution for past economic slavery, political exploitation, ethnic and cultural psychological destruction and denial of civil and human rights. Institutions in our community which do not serve the people have no place in the community. The institutions belong to the people.

    4. SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the campos, the pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La Causa. For the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts.

    5. CULTURAL values of our people strengthen our identity and the moral backbone of the movement. Our culture unites and educates the family of La Raza towards liberation with one heart and one mind. We must insure that our writers, poets, musicians, and artists produce literature and art that is appealing to our people and relates to our revolutionary culture. Our cultural values of life, family, and home will serve as a powerful weapon to defeat the gringo dollar value system and encourage the process of love and brotherhood.

    6. POLITICAL LIBERATION can only come through indepen-dent action on our part, since the two-party system is the same animal with two heads that feed from the same trough. Where we are a majority, we will control; where we are a minority, we will represent a pressure group; nationally, we will represent one party: La Familia de La Raza!

    Action

    1. Awareness and distribution of El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. Presented at every meeting, demonstration, confrontation, courthouse, institution, administration, church, school, tree, building, car, and every place of human existence.

    2. September 16, on the birthdate of Mexican Independence, a national walk-out by all Chicanos of all colleges and schools to be sustained until the complete revision of the educational system: its policy makers, administration, its curriculum, and its personnel to meet the needs of our community.

    3. Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors at every school, every available man, woman, and child.

    4. Community nationalization and organization of all Chicanos: El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán.

    5. Economic program to drive the exploiter out of our community and a welding together of our people's combined resources to control their own production through cooperative effort.

    6. Creation of an independent local, regional, and national political party.

    A nation autonomous and free - culturally, socially, economically, and politically- will make its own decisions on the usage of our lands, the taxation of our goods, the utilization of our bodies for war, the determination of justice (reward and punishment), and the profit of our sweat.

    El Plan de Aztlán is the plan of liberation!

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Thanks for the levity, Levon.

    If the problem was fruit-pickers and dishwashers, I don't think I'd be as vehement as I am. Unfortunately, the problem is much bigger than that. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm motivated by my own family's preservation, as well as the preservation of my country. You don't have to believe me, just look at the protesters and hear what the say. I did not 'doctor' the film, I did not 'dub' the voices.

    WeHateGringos

    To call someone a racist with THIS as a resume is REALLY the pot calling the kettle black. Oh, I'm sorry. I guess that was a racist comment, too.

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    Guy--you said you were going to offer proof of noncitizen voting...were you planning on coming through with that? If you intended that set of transcripts and links to do it, I read them--and there isn't a single word about illegals voting...in California...in 1995.

  • Jeanne Reid (unverified)
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    TorridJoe, From what I understand, you can register to vote when you get your driver's license here in NC. The authorities have already siezed thousands of driver's licenses obtained with FAKE documents and looking for more. Why could the illegals NOT register to vote if they can fool the DMV with fake documents? I am sure they can get by with voting.

  • Jon Blake (unverified)
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    Anne Martens, there is a recall petition already underway for Bill B, yea..your boss. I am sure the citizens of Oregon are very interested why a spokesperson for the Sec. of State has time to waste posting on a blog and in such an inflammatory way. Do not let the door hit you on the way out.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Well TorridJoe, like I told your buddy Ross, of course there's no PROOF because there's no way to verify. Kinda like those Diebold machines, you know. The government can't be bothered to verify a vote with a paper trail, how can you expect them to verify a voter that way?

    Of course, it's ILLEGAL to ask someone to verify eligibility at the polls, so I guess we'll never know just how many votes are actually fraudulent. With 30 million people here who don't respect immigration law, it's not hard to imagine them disrespecting voting laws, as well.

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    Guy--here's what you said: "You ask for proof of illegals voting? I think I might have what you seek." Now you're backtracking, I guess--"of COURSE there's no proof."

    30 million illegal immigrants? You're high. Worst case estimates aren't even 15 million, to my knowledge.

    Jeanne--I never said illegals can't necessarily register. That's not at all the same as saying they do, is it? Until there is any evidence of non-citizen voting being a problem, pretending it is one is just so much more race baiting than it is a policy discussion.

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    Jon Blake,

    Bradbury is one of the most ethical politicians in this state, hands down. At the recent Secretary of State convention, he and the Republican Secretary of California led an effort to get all secretaries nationwide to pledge neutrality during election cycles.

    He has a good history of breing extremely meticulous with voter ID, auditing, and assesing fines for incorrect campaign behavior.

    The treasurer of the State Dems had to step down a while back over an error that caused Bradbury to assess a five figure fine..

    <hr/>

    Try to recall him if you want, but since Righties are always whining about WasteFraudAndAbuse, and Bradbury has been doing a kickass job on these issues, that wouldn't be real smart.

    Add to that the fact that the Brainsurgeons in house leadership cut a half a million dollars from the auditing side (which has a record of recovering $8 for $1 spent), and you'd have to conclude that we should be recalling Minnis and Scott rather than Bradbury.

  • JJ Ark (unverified)
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    Annie Lover: For the Illegal is ILLEGAL crowd. If your father steals from a store while you are with him do you have to face the same punishment? So if my father dragged me across the border ILLEGALLY them I can go to school. I have to swim back to Russian or Veitnam. Not Mexico becasue we aren't racists.

    No one is saying, “No school for YOU!” What they are saying is that you shouldn’t be here. Illegal means illegal.

    Funny you bring up the sins of our fathers…in your way of thinking, we would only punish your father by sending him to his home country, but keep you here. Nahhh…that’s a bad idea. Or it could just be that your analogy is very weak.

    ASDF: It's not racism, it's people coming here, abusing our health care and other support systems, being a burden to our schools, not paying their fair share of taxes, raping and killing our children and nuns, bringing drugs to our communities

    Nuns? Lost me there.

    The vast majority of folks who come here illegally, or legally for that matter, behave lawfully once they get here (if you overlook the minor breaking-of-the-law-to-get-here thingy). But the fact remains that illegal immigrants are a burden on our infrastructure. Not just schools, health care, and jails for a few cases, but roads, bridges, licensing, and insurance rates. Depending on their situation, they often get forced into the worst housing, are typically underemployed. Often, they aren’t aware that the Constitution applies to them as well as citizens, so they under-report crime affecting them for fear of exposure. In short, it’s a baaaad position to be in all around. Better to reform immigration, make it easier for folks to come here legally and integrate them into our society, along with a hefty dose of increased border enforcement.

    Marc in PDX: does anyone REALLY belive that 10 million illegals are bankrupting our assistance infrastructure? i think i stil can do math and even if you inflate all figures of the number of illegals to 15 million that equates to 5% of the us population roughly. this assumes that 100% of illegals are getting MRI scans, liver transplants, and viagara prescriptions while never collecting on the payroll taxes they dump into the system (i'll take a stab here that at $7/hour they don't pay a whole bunch of income taxes).

    They aren’t bankrupting it. But they are definitely contributing to the bankrupting of many components of our infrastructure. Hypothetical here: if your system is close to overload with 99% of the assistance being taken up by legal citizens, then it doesn’t take much to push it over the edge.

    Lastly, it’s a common misnomer that people that get paid 7$ an hour pay no taxes. People who get paid 7$ an hour typically have money withheld from their checks, given to the various government and then they get all or more of it back when they file their returns. Unless they set their deductions to 12 or some ridiculous number, the government takes a chunk, and they then get that money back. In short, they are loaning the government money if only on a short-term basis, interest free. This is money that gets used to pave roads, pay for schools, rebuild bridges, jails, etc.

    Of course all of this assumes that 1. they are actually being paid over-the-table…snort…if they can’t prove citizenship or work status, that is unlikely, or 2. their employer is on the up and up and is actually passing the money along to the government. Considering that if someone is willing to break the law and not prove work status in the first place, and have now proven themselves as untrustworthy, I somehow doubt that they are passing this cash along to the government.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    TorridJoe,

    "30 million illegal immigrants? You're high. Worst case estimates aren't even 15 million, to my knowledge."

    The best estimate of the illegal alien population came from the last Census in the year 2000. That figure was about 11 million.

    http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0061.html

    According to the US Border Patrol for fiscal year 2005, over 1.1 million illegal aliens were captured. USBP estimates that for every illegal alien caught, between 4 and 10 go unapprehended. Assuming the small end of the estimate, about 4 million a year make it across the border uncontested. That comes to another 20+ million, conservatively. Added to the 11 million already here makes the total about 31 million currently in the US.

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    Guy, you're making the mistake of thinking that the 4-10 million are different people from the 1.1 who are caught, or even different from each other. They go back and forth, you know.

    You are asserting that the illegal immigrant population has tripled in 6 years, which is one whale of an assertion IMO--especially since we know it has gotten harder since 2001.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    It may be harder than it used to be, but the figures I gave you were for fiscal 2005. Since it's harder now to cross the border, the vast majority that do make it do not return, for ANY reason. To assume that anyone who paid a 'coyote' $1,500 to $5,000 to get across the border would turn around and go back is absurd. No matter how many times the same ones get caught, the rest are getting through. That's the Border Patrol's numbers, not mine.

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    However you want to suggest it Guy, there is no credible source out there claiming that the number of illegals has tripled in the last six years. I suggest we stick with established estimates.

  • (Show?)

    food for thought:

    With so much at stake, migrants make repeated attempts to cross the border. The Border Patrol would not say how many of the 1.14 million arrests last year were of people caught multiple times.

    But officials acknowledged that many of those who are caught and returned to Mexico just turn around and try again.

    And again. And again.

    One recent Monday, Brauilio Benitez Serno was arrested on his second attempt to make it across the desert outside Yuma.

    The 19-year-old from Aguascalientes was scanned into the Border Patrol's fingerprinting system and later dropped back at the border. Benitez said he paid a smuggler $1,500 and wasn't planning on giving up until he reached his destination, Los Angeles.

    "Everybody said it would be hard," he said. "I still have hope."

    The high smugglers fees would seem to be a deterrent to most cash-poor migrants. But relatives already working in the United States usually help defray the costs.</blockqoute>

    The article does go on to say that repeated crossings are diminishing...because it's getting harder to go back and forth (the irony!) But note also that people who are caught, simply try again.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    TorridJoe,

    The 'established estimates' from the Border Patrol are that 10,000 a night make it across the border and into the US. None of those people are going to go back after they have made it here. That would be the epitome of stupidity. The number is 30 million, give or take. I realize that figure screws up your dis-information campaign, but I'm afraid that can't be helped. I'll believe the Border Patrol before I believe you. After all, they are the ones down there with boots on the ground.

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    Uh, Guy, 10,000 a night isn't necessarily 30 million a year. That's only if you count "repeat customers" each time.

    There might be 30 million crossings a year, but if people are going back and forth, it might only be a few million people each year.

    If it were 30 million unique individuals each year -- well, in our country of 295 million people, you'd see 10% of the population be illegal immigrants in just one year. In just 10 years, the population of the USA would double - and half the country would be illegal aliens.

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    Don't hide behind the Border Patrol, Guy--they say no such thing as you claim. You ae extrapolating their statistics in isolation, and making claims they do not verify.

    At this point the idea of 30 million illegals exists solely in your own mind--not on any credible report of the estimate. Pew reported based on 2004 data that about 460,000 illegal immigrants arrive every year. So in 6 years that would be about 2-3 million more. Which, amazingly, roughly corresponds to estimates in the 12-15mil range.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "Of course there's no evidence Ross,"

    Then why make the claim its true?

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    I have no idea what the real numbers are but thanks to public education I can read and do arithmetic.

    Guy didn't claim 30M/year, he claimed 30M total. 10K/day equates to 3.65M/year.

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    The border patrol definitely has a dog in this fight and those kinds of estimates are most often made in fights for resources. In addition, the same difficulties that make it hard to catch people and stop them from coming across the border make it hard to count them too.

    Census numbers and other estimates of who is here and how that population is changing are likely to be far more reliable than estimates by the border patrol.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Thank you doretta, I appreciate your backup. I'd rather believe the Border Patrol than Pew Research, since the Border Patrol are the ones getting shot. And don't forget, that estimate is on the LOW side.

    Ross,

    As much as I hate to repeat myself; "With 30 million people here who don't respect immigration law, it's not hard to imagine them disrespecting voting laws, as well."

    TorridJoe,

    You said, "Don't hide behind the Border Patrol, Guy--they say no such thing as you claim. You ae extrapolating their statistics in isolation, and making claims they do not verify."

    In testimony given and interviews given to both Congress and the MSM, the Border Patrol has said EXACTLY what I've repeated here. 10,000 a night for the last 5 years. You must've been one of those 'children left behind'.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    I take this quote from a letter from Sen. John McCain, a leading 'open borders' advocate and co-author of the McCain - Kennedy Shamnesty Bill.

    "According to the U.S. Border Patrol apprehension statistics, it is estimated that almost four million people crossed our borders illegally in 2002."

    If you'd like to see the letter yourself, go here: McCain letter 2004

    If that figure is good enough for an 'open borders' Senator, it should be good enough for you.

  • Ryan (unverified)
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    My name is Ryan Olds and I am running against Linda Flores in House District 51. When I hear about things like this rally, it makes me all the more happy that I have decided to run. You won't hear one anti-immigrant statement come out of my mouth during this campaign. We all know that this country was founded and built by immigrants. My ancestors came over here from all over Europe for a better life and an opportunity to live free and we should not deny this to immigrants because they happen to be a different color than our immigrant ancestors. It makes me sick to see the anti-immigrant rhetoric when I see how hard many immigrants work and how they are exploited. Its time to stop blaming immigrants for our problems and start looking at the real reasons, partisanship and lack of leadership on many issues in this state, that many of us are struggling.

  • JJ Ark (unverified)
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    My ancestors came over here from all over Europe for a better life and an opportunity to live free and we should not deny this to immigrants because they happen to be a different color than our immigrant ancestors.

    Ryan:

    Were your immigrant ancestors legal or illegal immigrants?

    So you think the border situations are just fine as they are?

    Lastly, please let us, the good Dem voters know what you, as a representative, would do about the number of illegal immigrants coming in.

    Thanks!

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    Guy-- "In testimony given and interviews given to both Congress and the MSM, the Border Patrol has said EXACTLY what I've repeated here. 10,000 a night for the last 5 years. You must've been one of those 'children left behind'."

    I didn't dispute that statement. I disputed your statement that 30 million illegals currently reside in the US. The Border Patrol has said no such thing, and you apparently continue to fail to find anyone besides you who would make up such a number. And since you're now trying to get your point across by insulting me, I'll assume that anything more substantive from you is not forthcoming.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "With 30 million people here who don't respect immigration law, it's not hard to imagine them disrespecting voting laws, as well."

    So the problem is entirely imaginary. I'm glad we can agree o something.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Joe,

    "I didn't dispute that statement. I disputed your statement that 30 million illegals currently reside in the US."

    If you don't dispute 10,000 a night and you don't dispute 11,000,000 in the year 2000 it's a numerical impossibility to dispute 30 million now. Unless my abacus is broken.

    Ross,

    Nice try, but we both know that's not true. If you want to dispute something, let's dispute those 8 paragraphs of statements from the folks who have the MOST to gain in this shamnesty fiasco, the corporate funded (Thank you, Budweiser and Ford) organizations like MALDEF, La Raza and MEChA who bring us wonderful things like THIS

    Can the discussion take on some substance now?

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    Guy - none of your paragraphs of material has anything to do with illegal immigration or even legal immigration. Your fears are imaginary - you have admitted as much. What do you suppose imaginary means? Even paranoids have enemies, they just don't know the difference between the real ones and the imaginary ones. Its important to keep the distinction.

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    Just because Anne works for the Secretary of State's office does not mean she doesn't have a personal life. And as part of that personal life, she can write blogs on various topics as she chooses.

    I don't know where people get this idea that just because you work in the public sector that we somehow get to control how you live your life outside of the job.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Ok Ross, you're right. I'm imagining things. Like I'm imaging what's on that website you so love to avoid discussing. What is it there that you must shy away from? You talk to me of imaginings and hallucinations, butTHIS I don't imagine. Could you explain to me what those good-hearted, hard-working souls are doing? Oh, chanting 'Death to America' and 'Viva La Raza'. That's cool. Come on in. Have a beer? Maybe you'd like my wife and daughter, too? You seem to think you're entitled to everything else, why the hell not? 30 million in the country and you don't think they're gonna VOTE? I won't even express my true disgust at your stupidity, Ross. Go back to school boy, you're gonna need your mama's knickers to cling to.

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    Thank you, Anne, for opening the gates of discussion on this important issue.

    The legality of one's immigration status is a minor dilemma as compared to the pureness of one's motive for jumping on the 'anti-immigrant' bandwagon.

    Perhaps the true test of citizenship should be based upon one's ability to live by the creed of this nation & its ideals of liberty and justice for all.

    Under that standard, many native-born citizens in good standing would be found unfit & undeserving.

    What pride is there to be had in excluding others from the opportunity to live the American dream (or whatever part of that dream this admin manages to somehow leave intact)?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    A non-citizens opportunity to 'live the American dream' ends when they come to this country without permission (visa)and interfere with my ability to support my family.

    Elizabeth, you must have one of those jobs that isn't affected by the massive influx of cheap, foreign labor. Lucky you. Some of us aren't that lucky, that's why we fight. I wasn't getting rich at $22/hr, but I was able to support my kids with no help from anyone. Now that my wages have dropped to $12/hr and I get less hours, I've had to take food stamps to make ends meet. This is not only personally embarrassing, but against the 'creed of this nation & its ideals of liberty and justice for all.'

    So let me ask you a question. There are millions of people who have come to this country legally over the last 100 years, jumping through all the hoops to get here. Things like health screenings to keep out communicable diseases. TB and polio come to mind, both of which are seeing a resurgence in the illegal immigrant community. They also went through criminal background checks to eliminate the murderers and rapists that I'm sure you don't want living next door to you. They also waited years to get here, because this country can only assimilate a certain number of people. The theory was 'assimilation good, balkanization bad.'

    Now you want to fling the doors wide open to whoever and whatever can get across our porous southern border, is that what your saying? Drug-resistant TB only costs $250,000 per patient, and most new cases are indeed the drug-resistant type. Who should pay for that Elizabeth? Are you breaking out YOUR checkbook?

    And one last question, Elizabeth. Did you watch that interesting little film clip? Dont worry if you didn't, it's coming soon to a street corner near you. Good luck.

  • Mark (unverified)
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    It's not about racism. This state has finite resourses. Those of us who are here legally contribute to those resources. Those that are here illegally drain those resources. I want better schools, better healthcare, and more opportunities for Oregonians. I have no issues with imigrants who come here legally. My great-grandparents were immigrants. The State of Oregon needs to enforce our laws to encourage legal immigrants. If we want more legal immigrants from Mexico, we should ask the State Department to grant more visa's, not ignore the law of the land. Don't forget, illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, but if we don't chack ID's I guess they can vote.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    Those that are here illegally drain those resources.

    But that isn't true. People who are here illegally contribute as much or more as legal residents.

    This state has finite resourses.

    Because of their low income, illegal immigrants consume relatively less of those resources than other residents. Certainly less than wealthy immigrants, who we place almost no limitations on.

    Don't forget, illegal immigrants don't pay taxes,

    That isn't true either. Illegals have wages withheld like every other worker but they often don't collect social security or apply for tax refunds. So they are actually paying more than their fair share.

    Like I'm imaging what's on that website

    I suppose just like that.

  • fournier (unverified)
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    so, this might be a little out there given the tenor of the "debate" so far here, but i question the legitimacy of the right of the descendants of Europeans to be able to determine who is a "legal" and an "illegal" immigrant to this country.

    i'm pretty sure that the first Europeans didn't apply for visas before they came over and started the genocide that eventually largely wiped out the people that were already living on this continent. for white people to now claim that "illegal" immigrants are now threatening their standard of living is hypocracy beyond hypocracy.

    i'm much more concerned about the wellbeing of those without papers in this country than i am concerned about the supposed negative impact on the economy. the abuse sthat non-citizen workers face, "illegal" and "documented" alike, are horrific since they face losing their jobs and being deported if they're suspected of organizing or speaking to human rights groups. Guy, your "personal embarrass[ment]" means little to me compared to the health and safety of millions of "undocumented" workers.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    "But that isn't true. People who are here illegally contribute as much or more as legal residents."

    This from the Center for Immigration Studies...The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

    This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.

    "Because of their low income, illegal immigrants consume relatively less of those resources than other residents. Certainly less than wealthy immigrants, who we place almost no limitations on."

    See above...

    "That isn't true either. Illegals have wages withheld like every other worker but they often don't collect social security or apply for tax refunds. So they are actually paying more than their fair share."

    Acttually Ross, low-wage workers legal or not, pay less in witholding than higher wage workers because their income levels are closer to the poverty level. Also, when you factor in the number of dependents claimed, that figure declines even more. The costs associated with illegal immigration, (infrastructure, schools, law enforcement, bi-lingual education, social services) far outweigh any tax payments made by the illegal worker.

    "I suppose just like that."

    That's not imagination Ross, it's INVASION. You'll see it soon enough in your own neighborhood if you don't get your head out of the sand and wake up to what's going on.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "Center for Immigration Studies"

    Is an associate of the racist anti-immigrant hate group FAIR. It is a only a step more sophisticated at the game than wehategringos.com:

    Center for Immigration Studies

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    Here is a link to the actual news release from the National Research Council on its study Overall U.S. Economy Gains From Immigration. It does point out that not everyone benefits equally but it estimates the net benefit to the US economy from immigration at $10 Billion.

    It also says:

    "The panel's long-term estimates indicate that on a national level, the majority of new immigrants and their descendants will add more to government coffers than they receive over their lifetimes. "

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    fournier,

    "for white people to now claim that "illegal" immigrants are now threatening their standard of living is hypocracy beyond hypocracy."

    Obviously you think this is about race, and just as obviously you are wrong. Legal immigrants and naturalized citizens of ALL colors oppose illegal immigration. You might want to check out Latino Americans for Immigration Reform to get a more rounded viewpoint. I'd bet that you'll call them 'coconuts' or some other denigrating name because the don't subscribe to the La Raza racist agenda.

    "i'm much more concerned about the wellbeing of those without papers in this country than i am concerned about the supposed negative impact on the economy. the abuse sthat non-citizen workers face, "illegal" and "documented" alike, are horrific since they face losing their jobs and being deported if they're suspected of organizing or speaking to human rights groups. Guy, your "personal embarrass[ment]" means little to me compared to the health and safety of millions of "undocumented" workers."

    'Documented workers' face no such threats because they are here LEGALLY. I doubt you can show even ONE case where a 'documented worker' has been deported for organizing or speaking to human rights groups. If you can I would sure like to see it.

    As for my 'personal embarrassment' at having to avail myself of 'social services', if illegal workers hadn't flooded the construction industry I'd STILL be making $22-$25/hour and would not NEED those benefits. But I guess you think my family should suffer for the 'millions of undocumented workers' in this country.

    Ross, this is from the same report you cite...

    "In California, where many new immigrants live, each native household is paying about $1,178 a year in state and local taxes to cover services used by immigrant households, the panel said."

    'Anti-immigrant hate group' is a little rich when you use Morris Dees and the SPLC as a source.

  • JJ Ark (unverified)
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    WE are missing a wonderful opportunity here, folks.

    While the Republicans are busy bashing all immigration under the racist guise of "Borders, Language and Culture" we ought to be pushing a 3 prong agenda:

    1. Document those who ARE here, and doing the work already. Integrate them into society, get them on the tax rolls, and on the track to citizenship. Enfranchise those folks.

    2. Close and police the borders. Manage those who cross our borders effectively.

    3. Simplify and streamline the rules and regulations for those who wish to emigrate to our fair country. Not necessarily make it easy, but remove a few of the hoops folks must jump through.

    We have failed to set the frame on this issue, and the republicans will be using B/L/C as their bogeyman in the next election...the same as they did for gay marriage in the last.

    If we don't play ball, and do what is right (protect our soverienty and enhance it along the way), we will lose. Again.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    Ross, this is from the same report you cite...

    "In California, where many new immigrants live, each native household is paying about $1,178 a year in state and local taxes to cover services used by immigrant households, the panel said."

    It does indeed, and almost the very next sentence says this:

    However, annual estimates of immigrants' impact on state and local taxpayers may be inflated and should not be used to predict the long-term costs of admitting new immigrants, the panel said.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    I don't care about what may or may not happen 'long term'. IF ther is a benefit, it's a benefit we can live without. I care about the almost $2,000 a year per family that we're paying NOW!

    And so should you.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Sorry, $200 a month.

  • fournier (unverified)
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    Guy, while i'm not sure that this will change your mind, given the heat that you're posting with, here is an article called Silence in the Fields that was published in Mother Jones about the H-2A "guest worker" program.

    essentialy, the legal ability to be in the country is tied to continued employment with one particular employeer. that gives that one employeer the power to have someone deported if they decide to fire them.

    from the article:

    Although the federal government oversees wages and working conditions, farmers often mistreat H-2A workers without fear of being penalized. A six-month investigation of the program by Mother Jones reveals widespread complaints that growers have threatened workers at gunpoint, refused them water in the fields, housed them in crumbling, rat-infested buildings where sewage bubbles up through the drains, and denied them medical care after exposing them to pesticides. Farmers control their visitors, their mail, even their weekly shopping trips. A study by the U.S. General Accounting Office notes that H-2A workers, knowing they can be deported at any time, "are unlikely to complain about worker protection violations, fearing they will lose their jobs or will not be hired in the future." Workers say they have adopted several unwritten rules: Don't gripe about wages and working conditions. Don't seek the benefits you're entitled to. Don't make noise, even when your health is in jeopardy. "What you see, you must remain silent," says a Jamaican H-2A worker assigned to a Massachusetts vegetable farm. "What you hear, remain silent."

    there is also stuff in the article about how H-2A approved employers discourage US citizens from applying for the jobs beause the "guest workers" are so much easier to control. this is modern day (legal) enslavement in the United States.

  • fournier (unverified)
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    and Guy,

    $1,178 is way closer to $1,000 than @2,000. and $200 per month is $2,400. we talking closer to $1,200 a year and $100 a month.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    the republicans will be using B/L/C as their bogeyman in the next election

    Of course they will use immigrant-bashing, just as they used gay-bashing. And they will deny they are doing it, just as they deny being anti-gay. That doesn't mean we should join them.

    1. Document those who ARE here, and doing the work already. Integrate them into society, get them on the tax rolls, and on the track to citizenship. Enfranchise those folks.

    1. Close and police the borders. Manage those who cross our borders effectively.

    2. Simplify and streamline the rules and regulations for those who wish to emigrate to our fair country. Not necessarily make it easy, but remove a few of the hoops folks must jump through.

    How is this different from the current policy?

    We have had several efforts to legalize people who are working here already and we have upped our border guards.

    Its not clear that the latter hasn't been self-defeating. There is plenty of evidence that people who used to come temporarily for work and then returned home have started staying since it has grown increasingly difficult and downright dangerous to cross the border with Mexico.

    And no one is arguing that the problem is redtape associated with immigrating.

    If you want to end illegal immigration you can either create opportunities in the places people come from or reduce the opportunities here.

    If you want to make a political points, the Bush administration has abandoned enforcement of laws requiring employers to verify work papers. They simply no longer enforce them at all. Once again its the incompetence of the Bush administration that is the source of whatever problem there is.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    My bad on the math, I was on the phone with a customer while I was typing. $100 a month it is, and I would rather spend that money on MY kids than on the current upkeep of people who have broken the law to get here.

    As for the Mother Jones piece, it's a shame that those abuses are happening, and I think the people responsible for it should be put in jail for a LONG time. That said, I'd prefer to eliminate ALL those visas, and let the free market take it's course. Agriculturally, only 10% of most produce's cost is related to the labor involved. Even if agri-business had to double their wages, the resultant price increase would amount to another 10%. Stories of $6 lettuce are scare tactics thrown out there by criminal employers who care for no one but themselves, and nothing but the bottom line.

    "f you want to make a political points, the Bush administration has abandoned enforcement of laws requiring employers to verify work papers. They simply no longer enforce them at all. Once again its the incompetence of the Bush administration that is the source of whatever problem there is."

    You'll get no argument from on that. So long as there is no enforcement, there is no reason for criminal employers to change their ways. That's why I want the current laws enforced.

    Look, I don't blame anyone for wanting to come to this country to make a better life, I just want them to do it LEGALLY. Why is that so much to ask?

  • jj ark (unverified)
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    Of course they will use immigrant-bashing, just as they used gay-bashing. And they will deny they are doing it, just as they deny being anti-gay. That doesn't mean we should join them.

    Ok, wiseacre: how did I “join” them? By suggesting that we strengthen and augment existing policy?

    Now on to your NEXT point (which ironically answers your first point):

    How is this different from the current policy?

    Now, you are cookin’ with gas, Ross. It isn’t significantly different, just that we point out that its enforced.

    We have had several efforts to legalize people who are working here already and we have upped our border guards.

    “WE” haven’t done anything of the sort. The Republicans have. But they haven’t gotten the spirit of it, yet. They are still stuck on ½ the equation. We can take that worksheet and fill in the other half, benefiting from it.

    And no one is arguing that the problem is redtape associated with immigrating.

    Nope. No one except anyone that has tried to emigrate over the last 20 years. This gives US thunder. Its proactive, not REACTIVE. Instead of blaming someone we come across as someone trying to FIX a problem. Further, it actually does something we want…increases civic involvement.

    You just aren’t getting’ it. We don’t have the bull by the horns here. We are chasing the tail of the bull, not quite catching it.

    We can steal their thunder and come across as civics minded…by coupling the three things I listed.

    If you want to end illegal immigration you can either create opportunities in the places people come from or reduce the opportunities here.

    Sorry…you may be right in the grand scheme of things, but that is NOT what the electorate is going to want to hear to counter B/L/C. Telling Ma and Pa in Topeka that we are gonna create jobs in Mexico is about the same as telling them that you are gonna toss babies to alligators to keep them full. Sure it keeps the gators away, but it isn’t fun for the parents. You might as well tell them that “illegal immigration isn’t a problem”. I think that would cause less damage overall.

    Now, you can either sit there and blame Bush, which is a very fun thing to do around beers, but plays horribly with ma and pa in the heartland, or we can offer concrete solutions.

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    “WE” haven’t done anything of the sort.

    You're right. Bill Clinton did.

    No one except anyone that has tried to emigrate over the last 20 years.

    I doubt you will find a single illegal here who risked their lives in coming to avoid red tape.

    Your question: Ok, wiseacre: how did I “join” them?

    Your answer: We can steal their thunder

    but plays horribly with ma and pa in the heartland,

    No. Actually, ma and pa in the heartland understand it real easily. People are coming here for work. There are laws against hiring them. If employers stop hiring them a lot of them will stop coming. The Bush administration isn't enforcing that law.

    You aren't paying attention if you think blaming Bush is a hard sell, close to 70% of the public don't think he is doing a very good job. They aren't going to be surprised if there is another example of a problem he is making worse.

    Of course that doesn't help with the racist immigrant bashers. They aren't interested in solutions.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    "Of course that doesn't help with the racist immigrant bashers. They aren't interested in solutions."

    Obviously you aren't interested in solutions either, since you can't go 2 posts without calling people names. Why is it that only white Americans can be racist? Have you ever wondered about that?

    Don't tell me you think La Raza isn't racist. If you do, you haven't translated their slogan. "For the Race, everything. For everyone else, nothing." That's not racist?

    Bush is a clown, and the Republican Party is waking up to the fact that he is nothing more than another shill for the Globalist agenda. If they can lower the standards of living here to the level of Mexico, they'll be dancing in the streets of Bangalore, because there will be NO ONE LEFT that can STOP them.

  • (Show?)

    Guy, one more time: "The costs associated with illegal immigration, (infrastructure, schools, law enforcement, bi-lingual education, social services)"

    Only people here illegally don't speak English as a first language? :dunno:

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Bi-lingual education is a fraud, as it lessens the learning of ALL students. Just look at the test scores. People have come here from all over the world for over 200 years and they all seemed to learn English, why can't 'Hispanics'. Why did California have to spend millions dollars to print forms in foriegn languages? If you moved your family to Germany would you learn German, or would you cry about how hard it is and want Germany to print all their stuff in English.

    Legal or not, if you want to live here, learn the damned language!

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Joe,

    I'll bet you spent HOURS hunting that up, didn't you?

    Guy

  • (Show?)

    "People have come here from all over the world for over 200 years and they all seemed to learn English, why can't 'Hispanics'."

    Once again, your true feelings shine through the muck. Vietnamese people who don't learn English aren't a problem for you, nor are the Russians or the Poles or the Middle Easterners. It's only the Hispanics, who by your placement of quotation marks, seem to be fraudulent in that nominal respect as well. Keep on digging, Guy!

    For the record, having visited Germany many times, quite a bit of their stuff appears in English, actually--despite their not being exactly overburdened with native English speakers.

    And I don't know what you suspect took hours; re-locating your quote from above in order to reprint it took all of a few seconds, and it required no extra thought at all to recognize that legal immigrants use ESL resources too.

  • No thugs (unverified)
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    How long is it before we have roving patrols of self-deputized thugs harrassing people on the street to prove they are legal?

  • (Show?)

    I don't think any of us have said only whites can be racist. Anyone, regardless of their own race or ethnic group, can be a racist. I've seen people from all ethnic backgrounds who are racists.

    And actually, those people moving to the U.S. over the past few hundred years didn't necessarily learn English. Many continued speaking their natural language, with their younger family members (especially those who were born here or moved here when they were young) translating. That's why so many of us had grandparents, great grandparents, etc. who spoke no (or very little) English.

    Lots of other countries print their materials in other languages (including English) even though that is not their official language. That is not out of the ordinary. As a matter of fact, many countries have realized that English is a language that they need if they want to succeed on an international scale and teach it to their school children. From the looks of it, the United States is one of a few of the world's leading countries that does not push for its people to at least be bilingual.

  • Border Raven (unverified)
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    No Thugs,

    I don't need to be "self-deputized" to ask anyone about their immigration status, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, in no way restrict my right to do so.

    BTW, What is your immigration status? Do you have the documents to prove it?

    The laws of the state of California, do not "authorize" me to arrest a person, the laws don't "restrict" my right or duty to do so, as long as I effect a lawful arrest.

    Citizens have the duty, but the partiot takes on the responsibility, to defend the country.

    I can go to a group of people and legally ask them for their immigration status. I can assertain their eligibility for employment, in the USA, and should I suspect anyone is an illegal alien, I can either arrest or notify the local police, and delegate them to perform the arrest.

    If you don't believe me, read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then see the link below:

    http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01918.htm Arrest of Illegal Aliens by State and Local Officers

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    "the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, in no way restrict my right to do so."

    There are lots of things people have the right to do that are still wrong to do. Thugs are often people who don't know the difference or don't care.

  • Border Raven (unverified)
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    Well, consider me a rarity, because, I know the difference. I have taken it upon myself to study, laws. When I decided to buy a firearm, I learned about all of the different circumstances, that I might possibly, be subjected to, as an owner of one. California's firearm laws are extensive, but a homeless or transient person, can own and carry a firearm at their temporary residence or campsite; and a convicted felon, may also take possession, of a firearm, so long as to uphold the law, defend life and property. But, in a civil disorder, situation, the law of the land, may be the gun in my hand or your hand.

    As a vigilante and a patriot, I will follow the original Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, then all laws enacted since, to the best of my ability, though I may set aside certain laws, if they prove a hindrance to my duty.

    By certain laws, I can think of the laws regarding firearms, and racial profiling, as some laws may actually hinder my duty, as a vigilante and patriot. BTW -- as written, the racial profiling laws, are a restriction on law enforcement officers, sworn to uphold the laws, not the people. As a vigilante, I will take the laws, into my own hands -- what a joke, it is the people, who delegate authority to the elected government and their employees -- and as a patriot, I will support and defend the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights, federal and state laws) against all enemies, both foreign and domestic, to the best of my ability, so help me God*.

    • I believe in a Higher-Power, whom I choose to call God.
  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    "Once again, your true feelings shine through the muck."

    Come again?

    "Vietnamese people who don't learn English aren't a problem for you, nor are the Russians or the Poles or the Middle Easterners."

    I thought I made this clear. I said, "Why did California have to spend millions dollars to print forms in foriegn languages?

    "It's only the Hispanics, who by your placement of quotation marks, seem to be fraudulent in that nominal respect as well."

    Hispanic n. 1. of or pertaining to Spain or Spanish-speaking countries.

    So all Spanish-speaking countries are now one race? What about the problem of Europeanism? Maybe Spanish-speaking people should go back to Europe, too.

    "For the record, having visited Germany many times, quite a bit of their stuff appears in English, actually--despite their not being exactly overburdened with native English speakers."

    All those American soldiers over there are indeed their by invitation, which is more than I can say about illegal aliens here, and Germany may have 'quite a bit of stuff in English' for the convenience of the American soldiers and families that have been invited, but nobody went to Germany without permission and DEMANDED it. That's the point I was trying to make.

    Somehow Joe, it seems to me that you LIKE being a 'victim', you LIKE shouting 'RACIST', and you LIKE trying to bully Americans into cow-towing to YOUR RACIST AGENDA.

    No thugs,

    That job belongs to ICE.

  • (Show?)

    I'm so glad that I can tell my wife (who is Korean) that roving thugs like Border Raven are running around with guns and acting like police officers.

    So just how can you distinguish between those who are legally in the US (such as my wife who will have a legitimate visa) and those who are there illegally?

    Let's take the hypothetical situation. She (or anyone else for that matter) is walking around and approached by one of these self- described "vigilantes" asking for documents. If they can't provide documentation to suit your needs, then you arrest them? Is that correct? I just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

    I will wait for your answer...

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    I think its important to realize the vigilantes only prey upon the defenseless. They aren't going to start interrogating people they think can defend themselves. And they would be the first to call the cops if a group of blacks or hispanics stopped them and demanded identification and proof of citizenship. Or pull a gun to "defend" themselves.

    Anyone still think its not about race or that the anti-immigrant demagogues aren't playing with fire?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Ross,

    I have never advocated anything like this fool Border Raven proposes, so please don't paint me with such a broad brush.

    And when you say, "Anyone still think its not about race or that the anti-immigrant demagogues aren't playing with fire?", I've never said or insinuated that I was anti-immigrant. I have consistently said that I am staunchly anti-ILLEGAL ALIEN.

    illegal adj. 1. forbidden by law or statute 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules or regulations

    alien n. 1. a foreign-born resident who has not been naturalized and who owes his allegiance to another country 2. a foreigner

    This entire debate is about ILLEGAL ALIENS, not IMMIGRANTS.

    Let's TRY to stick to the subject, please.

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    Guy,

    Actually it is myself who asked the question, not Ross. I think it's a valid one.

    You have people on this board advocating the harrassment of anyone who looks illegal . My question is how do you distingish that? I also asked what the person would do if they thought this person couldn't provide adequate paperwork.

    When you have someone who is a vigilante, essentially their take on who's legal and who's not could be a matter of opinion (based on the paperwork they demand at the time they are harassing someone).

    This again goes back to the question, are they harrassing people because of the color of their skin?

  • LT (unverified)
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    As far as "looks illegal", what about illegal immigrants from N. Europe? Do they "look illegal"?

    More importantly, what is the quota for legal immigration from Mexico and points south?

    Or would that be bringing too much reason to this debate?

  • Border Raven (unverified)
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    To David English,

    For now, my focus is on the illegal alien day laborers and the employers who hire them.

    "So just how can you distinguish between those who are legally in the US (such as my wife who will have a legitimate visa) and those who are there illegally?"

    The process, is simple, I act like an employer, playing by the rules and laws, and use the DHS I-9 form, to hire or prescreen prospective employees. Those employees lacking the few documents, to meet the requirement of the DHS I-9 form, are suspected illegal aliens, I will report them to ICE. I won't detain or arrest them, unless I see the slightest misdemeanor violation, in which case, the local police get them first.

    Don't think, I have failed, I have actually gained a victory, because if I can show proof to the police, and ICE, that a pattern of criminal activity is occurring at a location, then I can get anyone associated with that location, to be approached by the police, who will ask for identification. This would in effect deny use of that location for the illegal activity.

    <hr/>

    To Ross Williams:

    This is not about race, it is about actions, and the illegal aliens -- who de facto are Hispanic -- and those who hire them, are acting, out of the normal. If the employers would use the DHS I-9 form and basically shut the illegals off from the labor pool, the illegals, would be encouraged to self-deport.

    But, as I said racial profiling laws are written, to control the cops, not the people.

    I have been studying the, illegal-alien problem, and seeking a solution for a year, maybe less. My goal is to try to keep the day labor centers open, since they give a legal edge to my process. By proving the existence of illegal aliens, in the mix of available workers -- right now it is assumed they are all illegals, I can get some level of government involvement. But, I need to discover the truth, and not proceed on assumptions.

    Every process flow-chart, for problem solving, goes in a step-by-step sequence. We are in the early steps, trying to avoid the latter. If the goal is achieved, then we return to the old normal, or accept a new normal.

    I learned along time ago, to play by the rules of the game. That it is not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game. The trick is to study the rules, and learn how to win by superior knowledge of the game.

    The US and state Constitutions are available online, as are US Code, state laws and local municipal codes. The problem begins, when people don't read the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. I have read, and discovered validations for my actions. I did so, not by taking bits of the books and writing a sermon, but by encompassing all of the laws into a whole.

    Pop Quiz: 1. What are the last four words of the Tenth Amendment of the US Constitution?

    1. What do those last four words mean?

    :)

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    David,

    Believe me I understand your concerns. My brother married his wife while stationed in Bangkok, and I certainly wouldn't want ANYONE accosting her on the street asking for 'papers'. Unfortunately there is a very small but vocal faction who are obviously racially motivated, however they do NOT speak for the VAST majority who want U.S. Immigration law enforced. Too many Americans fought and died to defeat the idea of SS stormtroopers in the streets asking for 'papers'.

    But illegal is illegal, and in truth, there is much more cost involved than benefits received when we tolerate this lawlessness. Wages for poor and working-class Americans are depressed at the same time their jobs dry up because criminal employers break the law in the name of 'the bottom line'.

    Here's how I see it, bottom line.

    1. Secure the border NOW! If NOTHING else, complete border CONTROL will eliminate the needless deaths in the desert Southwest. Of course, stopping 3-4 million more every year would be nice, too.

    2. Enforce the law against criminal employers to the fullest extent. As soon as a dozen or so go to jail, the job magnet disappears and will cause most of the illegal population to self-deport.

    3. Deport ALL illegal aliens regardless of their country of origin. If you have no respect for the law in this country then I don't want you here.

    Number 3 may be harsh to some, but it is feasible. You start with the 1/3 of the prison population that is already in custody. Worst first, if you know what I mean. Another good reason to secure the border first, that way the killers, rapists and drug traffickers can't get back in.

    After that, deport any illegal alien encountered by local, state or federal law enforcement during the normal course of their duties. We must be fools to tie the hands of law enforcement in the name of 'political correctness'.

    Yes, there will be a period of adjustment for business as they get used to paying a livable wage again, but I won't care about their suffering. They deserve it for selling out the citizens of this country in the first place. Whatever price increases we MIGHT see would surely be offset by the reduced costs of health care, education, law enforcement and social services.

    When these steps are taken we can rationally decide who comes here for what reason, and make sure they leave at the end of their visit.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    ...or to the people.

  • LT (unverified)
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    Guy, Ed Schultz has been asking callers all week if they support rounding up all illegals--logistics, cost, etc.

    How do you handle the children born in this country to illegal immigrants working here --are they deported, or haven't you thought through? What penalty to the employers--or is "round them up and deport them" going to solve the problem of businesses wanting cheap labor?

    Should there be a discussion of the quota for legal Mexican immigration?

    And what about Cardinal Mahoney? A web search will find several stories with quotes like this one: "Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles made a point this week of saying that immigrants' legal status should not affect how the church ministers to them. "

    Are you going to arrest Catholic priests and others who take the Biblical admonition "as ye do to the least of them, ye do to me" seriously and provide soup kitchens and other services for immigrants?

    Ideology is one thing, logistics are another.

    And about Border Raven's comment: "the illegal aliens -- who de facto are Hispanic -- "

    Suppose you see 2 people in sweat suits jogging in a park --one looks Irish and the other looks Hispanic. Do you assume the Irish person is here legally and the Hispanic must be illegal unless proven otherwise? Gov. Richardson, US AG Gonzales, and a number of other public officials may look like just another Hispanic if they are out in a park exercising. What is to prevent vigilantes from saying "Let's go hassle that Hispanic" and then it turns out to be someone famous who holds office in this country?

    Time to tone down the rhetoric and talk about logistics. Does either the House bill by Tancredo or the McCain Kennedy bill or any other current piece of legislation address any of this--or is this topic about letting off steam?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    I'm going to respond to each point as best I can...

    Guy, Ed Schultz has been asking callers all week if they support rounding up all illegals--logistics, cost, etc.

    How do you handle the children born in this country to illegal immigrants working here --are they deported, or haven't you thought through?

    The XIV Amendment was proposed in 1866 and ratified in 1868 to address the issue of citizenship for the freed slaves after the Civil War.

    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

    Birthright citizenship was NEVER meant for illegal aliens, the same as it was never meant for diplomats or temporary visitors. In answer to your question, Yes, I would deport the children, too. This may need to be re-visited by the Supreme Court to affirm it, but it IS the way it reads.

    What penalty to the employers--or is "round them up and deport them" going to solve the problem of businesses wanting cheap labor?

    Penalties applied as per EXISTING U.S. law. Employers already face a $5,000 fine AND 6 months in jail for hiring illegal workers. Make them PAY it!

    Should there be a discussion of the quota for legal Mexican immigration?

    Only after the border is completely secure to prevent any more illegal entry.

    And what about Cardinal Mahoney? A web search will find several stories with quotes like this one: "Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles made a point this week of saying that immigrants' legal status should not affect how the church ministers to them. "

    Are you going to arrest Catholic priests and others who take the Biblical admonition "as ye do to the least of them, ye do to me" seriously and provide soup kitchens and other services for immigrants?

    Romans 13 teaches us to obey the law of the land. If Cardinal Mahoney wants to interject HIS opinion in this, his organization (the Catholic Church, which I grew up in) should have their tax-exempt status revoked and be made to register as a political lobby.

    Ideology is one thing, logistics are another.

    And about Border Raven's comment: "the illegal aliens -- who de facto are Hispanic -- "

    Border Raven is right about one thing, over 80% of illegal aliens are of Hispanic, from EVERY country south of our border.

    Suppose you see 2 people in sweat suits jogging in a park --one looks Irish and the other looks Hispanic. Do you assume the Irish person is here legally and the Hispanic must be illegal unless proven otherwise?

    No, I don't assume anything. Border and worksite enforcement will eliminate MOST illegal aliens by reducing their access and employment. Others who remain will be found NOT by 'sweeps and searches', but by ordinary law enforcement in it's normal course of events.

    Gov. Richardson, US AG Gonzales, and a number of other public officials may look like just another Hispanic if they are out in a park exercising. What is to prevent vigilantes from saying "Let's go hassle that Hispanic" and then it turns out to be someone famous who holds office in this country?

    What is to prevent vigilantes from doing anything now? The law, and nothing else.

    Time to tone down the rhetoric and talk about logistics. Does either the House bill by Tancredo or the McCain Kennedy bill or any other current piece of legislation address any of this--or is this topic about letting off steam?

    McKennedy does NOT address enforcement of current laws, it simply gives amnesty to 30 million lawbreakers. HR 4437 (Sensenbrenner-King, not Tancredo, although he is a co-sponser) addresses border security and employer enforcement. It also allows about 9.5 million more legal immigrants over the next 10 years.

  • Pancho (unverified)
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    mexican mantra

    All of the laws should be enforced equally, regardless of race, religion, and/or national origin. That is with the exception of mexicans, and they should be above the law and exempt from the law. And the only purpose that a tonto gringo serves is to pay taxes to support the superior and noble mexican.

    Anyone who disagrees with this philosophy is a Xenophobic Racist.

    Pancho

    All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. George Orwell, Animal Farm, ch.10, 1945

  • Ross Williams (unverified)
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    But illegal is illegal, and in truth, there is much more cost involved than benefits received when we tolerate this lawlessness.

    I think it was you who cited a study that contradicts this claim. We have lots of more serious problems that immigrants who work without papers - like people who talk on cell-phones while driving. Which is also illegal in almost every state if you look at the requirements for drivers to maintain control of their vehicle. Why don't you worry about a problem of illegal activity that is actually causing harm instead of immigrants who produce a net benefit to the country by coming here to work?

    I think the answer is apparent.

  • Rebel N. Dog (unverified)
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    The Chinese are a blight on the world, not just this country. Breed, breed, breed, breed, breed. "It is a disgrace to your ancestors to be childless". "The peg which stands up will be pounded down". Environmental terrorists. Period.

    Instead of pampering everyone, why not say it like it is? All humans are reprehensible scum, just in different ways.

  • Zarathustra (unverified)
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    I think it's mistaken finger-pointing, though the frustration is valid. Just about every job involves fraud and outright lawlessness. I'm sick and tired of the fact that every employer is only interested in how I can cheat for the business, rather than thinking about value for money.

    More often than not, it is the immigrants that are the most willing and, often, downright enthusiastic to break the law for their employers. Our laws create a filter where we get more lawless immigrants than law abiding ones and our business culture rewards that behavior. We don't have an immigrant problem, we have a problem that everything we do in this country is based on fraud. The business of America is business and the preferred method of American business is fraud. And we're becoming so stupid, intellectually, that anyone with an average IQ is a hot property here.

    Universal (literally) work sufferage for all!

  • JJ Ark (unverified)
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    So, Ross...your solution is to divert the attention of the populace?

    You yourself agree that the Repub's are setting this one up to be B/L/C, just as they did Gay Marriage before:

    Of course they will use immigrant-bashing, just as they used gay-bashing. And they will deny they are doing it, just as they deny being anti-gay. That doesn't mean we should join them.

    If we are gonna do that, I am gonna have to find another party to belong to, cuz I am sick and tired of losing.

    I am fed up with letting some bonehead morons in the opposition party (the republicans) not only drive their own party by fear and boogeymen, but force us along for the ride.

    You just don't get it, do you?

    We aren't in the drivers seat on this issue. When voters look for solutions the ONLY ONE they will find is the Republicans, couching everything in the fear of the Brown Menace steaming across the border(s).

    We have to take the lead on this or we will fail, plain and simple.

    "do nothing" is the course of small-mindedness and a sure route to failure. Clinton took steps in the right direction, but he isn't here, and he cannot finish what he continued with NAFTA.

    "look at this other pretty shiny thing" won't work here. This has been set up over 3 years now...we are too late to dictate terms in this battle.

    Further, unless we take the lead on this issue, it will be "paperz plez" for everyone with brown or brownish LOOKING skin.

    I do not wish to live in that country, but unless we act, PRO-ACTIVELY and sieze the wheel in this debate, we will be.

  • LT (unverified)
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    A little history:

    http://rs6.loc.gov/learn/features/immig/mexican8.html

    is part of a Library of Congress site (you can go to that URL and move to other pages of history from there).

    Among other things, this describes the bracero program, often left out of discussions like this one.

  • Jeanne ReiD (unverified)
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    Annie, George Washington, in a letter to John Adams, stated that immigrants should be absorbed into American life so that "by an intermixture with our people, they, or their descendants, get assimilated to our customs, measures, laws: in a word soon become one people."

    This is what the Mexicans DO NOT WANT TO DO, Anne. They want to have their Mexico and their language right here on American soil. They do not want to assimilate, but force their culture on us. Why do you think the American people are so mad? Mexican flags belong in Mexico, not waved on the streets of LA in a huge protest DEMANDING that we bow down and give the illegal invaders everything they want! Their protests may backfire on them because the American citizens now see how huge the invasion is and it has infuriated them. Maybe you should move to Mexico, Anne. Need any help packing your bags?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Ross,

    Let's look at the REST of that quote...

    But illegal is illegal, and in truth, there is much more cost involved than benefits received when we tolerate this lawlessness. Wages for poor and working-class Americans are depressed at the same time their jobs dry up because criminal employers break the law in the name of 'the bottom line'.

    You must be someone who doesn't have to compete with these folks for your daily bread, Ross. And what do you describe as a 'net benefit', anyway?

    1. Closed hospitals?

    2. Failing schools?

    3. Fractured infrastructure?

    4. Bulging prison populations?

    5. Environmental Degradation?

    6. Soaring crime rates?

    7. MS-13 Gang-bangers?

    8. Mexican methamphetamine?

    9. Lethal Drug Cartels?

    10. Murdered law enforcement?

    Thanks but no thanks Ross, I'll grow my own damned vegetables.

  • BorderRaven (unverified)
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    LT, "How do you handle the children born in this country to illegal immigrants working here --are they deported, or haven't you thought through?"

    The government usually, sets a date for a reference. Mostly that date is the date a policy or law goes into effect. If you are before the date, you are affected by "X", after the date then it is "Y".

    "What penalty to the employers--or is "round them up and deport them" going to solve the problem of businesses wanting cheap labor?"

    Screw them! I retired from the military in August 1992, my longest job was 4.5 years, and that job ended, when the company was bought by their #1 competitor in Canada, shortly after the Asian economy collapsed. My second longest job has been 2-years. The manufacturing just is not out there, at least not for durable goods and machine tools. I've been in three shops that were 98% Hispanic labor and one that was 99% Asian. My hourly wages since retiring from the military, has been from $9 to $17, but above $15 is rare. My rent has not gone down, nor has the price of gasoline or groceries.

    I've taken to spending a few hours a week sitting and observing day labor sites, and recording my observations. I am also busy attending city council meetings, and giving an occasional speech.

    de facto

    Do you know what "de facto" means? It means "matter of fact" or beyond my control. I have been called racist, Nazi, KKK, etc., all because I want the border secured and the laws enforced. Not because I oppose Mexicans, or Hispanics crossing the border, but because I oppose immigrants crossing the border* illegally, who just happen to be Mexicans and Hispanics. Now, I will not accept responsibility for the color of the criminal's skin, or their rational, for their actions, nor will I allow anybody, to force me to accept the blame for the actions of others, or feel guilty, or remorseful for their death, in trying to commit a crime.

    • Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
  • (Show?)

    I missed the great fury this email set off, and its resultant entry into the MSM (which I lament!), but if it proves anything, it's that Anne's initial hypothesis was more accurate than not. As I said WAY upthread, there are a lot of different elements to the immigration debate--and many of them are legitimate.

    But for anyone to argue that racism is NOT an element, I have to ask: then why did this post, of all the posts on BlueOregon, hit such a nerve? For proponents of strict immigration regulation--security hawks, anti-terror types--you have to know you've thrown in with racists who are piggybacking the issue as a legitimate outlet for their illegitimate views. Anne's right to challenge you on the point, and that no one on the anti-immigration side is willing to own up to this element is the biggest indictment of all.

  • LT (unverified)
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    Cong. Tancredo, the big anti-immigration Congressman, was on THIS WEEK on ABC debating Sen. Specter. You know a Cong. is feeling tongue tied when "you guys" slips out in the middle of an answer. He was answering a question about whether Cardinal Mahoney or anyone in any of the churches he supervises would be thrown into jail for not checking the papers of those who show up at a church soup kitchen. And he said no, that was not what was meant. He said his wording was in response to previous wording "religious or other groups" which sounded like giving license to groups which give aid and shelter to Muslims who enter this country illegally.

    Gee, why didn't he say so earlier instead of joining in the frenzy about how we have to keep the Mexicans from coming here illegally?

    Anyone know if there are Islamic extremists coming into the border from Mexico? Or could it be the most vocally anti-immigrant folks are trying to pretend that the only illegal immigrants in this country come from S. of the border and not from Middle Eastern, European, or Asian countries?

    I think he proved Anne's basic thesis is correct.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    "But for anyone to argue that racism is NOT an element, I have to ask: then why did this post, of all the posts on BlueOregon, hit such a nerve?"

    I won't dare answer for anyone else, but I can certainly tell you why this issue 'strikes a nerve' for me. I see the legalization of 30 million people who broke the law to get here is a threat to society.

    There is something special about being an American. If you don't feel that in your own heart, I pity you. For several generations, people from ALL OVER THE WORLD have fought tooth and nail to get here to partake of the phenomenon known as 'the American Dream'. Immigration was strictly limited, allowing us to pick and choose the best and brightest from around the world to make our country even greater than before. The fact that 30 million are here NOW DEMANDING rights they did not earn makes me mad! That's why it touches 'my nerve'.

    "For proponents of strict immigration regulation--security hawks, anti-terror types--you have to know you've thrown in with racists who are piggybacking the issue as a legitimate outlet for their illegitimate views. Anne's right to challenge you on the point, and that no one on the anti-immigration side is willing to own up to this element is the biggest indictment of all."

    You seem to be saying that legitimate economic and national security issues should be IGNORED because a couple of loonies happen to agree. Nobody has 'thrown in with racists'. I don't control anyone's thought but my own. The whole issue is a NON-issue. You're talking about 'indictments' because I won't 'own up to this element'. Radical racist hate-mongers are found on BOTH extremes of this issue. Am I associated with them simply because they EXIST? Am I supposed to ignore REAL ISSUES because of SOMEONE ELSE'S politics? My convictions run a little deeper than the latest 'PC acquiesence'.

    I hope you can come up with something better than that for the next round.

  • (Show?)

    Immigration was strictly limited, allowing us to pick and choose the best and brightest from around the world to make our country even greater than before.

    We have in no way went about picking and choosing the best and brightest to allow in this country. If you follow the rules, pay your fees, etc. you are typically allowed in the country.

    It can take a long time to process, you have to be from a country that isn't already "maxed out" on the number allowed in each year, etc. However, we don't go through and pick and choose to make sure we have the best and brightest.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    I beg to differ. Before the FIRST amnesty fiasco in 1965, when Ted Kennedy lied to us and said on the Senate floor, "Our cities will not be flooded by a million immigrants annually", we really DID pick and choose the best and brightest. Granted that was 40 years ago and a lot has changed SINCE then, but that's the way it was before.

    That's the way it should be NOW!

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    What's up? Y'all don't want to play anymore?

  • (Show?)

    After giving it some more thought, I agree we should have a stronger immigration policy toward people who enter the country illegally.

    I can't help but shutter to think I'm actually agreeing with Bush on this one

    In my case, my wife and I are standing in line, spending money and time to file petitions to allow her to come to the US. The cost is not a huge, $600. The amount of time we have to put into it is just as precious. Making trips back and forth to the US Embassy here in Seoul.

    Why should someone be able to sneak over a mountain and not pay a dime of cost (in terms of formal filing) and then expect to be giving citizenship?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    To Ross Williams,

    I knew I'd find it, it just took a few days...

    As Wikipedia notes: "In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valley to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of illegal aliens as temporary replacement workers during a strike. Joining him on the march were both the Reverend Ralph Abernathy and U.S. Senator Walter Mondale. Chávez and the UFW would often report suspected illegal aliens who served as temporary replacement workers as well as who refused to unionize to the INS."

    Wow, he really DID HATE ILLEGALS!!

  • shelley (unverified)
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    "Immigration isn't an easy issue, and it won't be solved by soundbites, by building a fence between here and there, or by making information accessible only to a (white) elite."

    It certainly isn't an easy issue, but an issue that I feel will play a large part in the upcoming mid-term elections. I think illegal immigrants, are going to be the wedge issue that will be in the headlines. And I feel it may end up being a much larger draw to the polls than even 'same sex marraige' was to the last. Just my 2¢

  • LT (unverified)
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    I think illegal immigrants, are going to be the wedge issue

    But wedge issues can be unpredictable. Some say the Republicans have to choose between Hispanic outreach and being tough on illegal immigration.

    Sen. Martinez and AG Gonzales are Republicans, but they are unlikely to join in immigrant bashing.

  • g (unverified)
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    "Sen. Martinez and AG Gonzales are Republicans, but they are unlikely to join in immigrant bashing."

    How does enforcing current U.S. law translate into 'immigrant bashing'? The subject remains illegal aliens, NOT immigrants.

  • Cari (unverified)
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    Anyone asking why Americans don't oppose immigrants besides the Mexicans are sitting in the dark. Maybe it's because Mexicans want to take over this country and turn it into El Norte Mexico. Maybe it's because Mexican groups come out and say they want to kill all gringos. Maybe it's because Mexicans only care about Mexicans yet they call everyone else racist? Mexicans have grand schemes in mind and make demands that other cultures don't make, let alone that they come here ILLEGALLY and call themselves "migrants". Maybe it's because they are an afront to every other ethnic group that has had to go through the system to get here and stay here. Maybe it's because other cultures don't storm the streets, making demands on the citizens of a country when they are not supposed to be here to start with. I would shudder to think how any American would be treated In Mexico if they went there and started demanding jobs, free social services, free health care, that everyone speak English, and in general rights and priviledges that other Mexican citizens don't receive. It's amazing that Mexicans call everyone who opposes their illegal entrance into America racists yet if you check out their literature, they oppose everyone except themselves. Go to the La Raza, MeCHA. La Voz sites and see for yourself. Look at what flag they are carrying through the streets of America and check out what flag they stomp on and burn. Oh, yeah, the Mexicans care about everyone else here. Right. Let them prove that they aren't racist instead of the other way around.

  • LT (unverified)
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    How does enforcing current U.S. law translate into 'immigrant bashing'? The subject remains illegal aliens, NOT immigrants.

    g, do you support tougher enforcement of employer sanctions for hiring illegals?

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Absolutely! The law on the books already says $5,000 fine and six months in jail per illegal. I think it should be doubled. I think if an employer is caught a SECOND time it should be quadrupled. A third time and they should do the same thing they did to Bush's granddaddy Prescott in 1943, seize the business. You do remember Prescott, don't you? He was doing ALOT of business with Hitler and Company.

    IMHO, Big Business is the biggest problem, with their addiction to illegal labor only a symptom of a larger problem, their concerted effort to destroy the middle class of America from both ends.

    You've got the poor end getting squeezed by illegals and the wealthier end getting squeezed by H1B and L1 visas. When will the sheeple wake up? Sadly I fear, not until they've been sheared.

  • Guy Pinestra (unverified)
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    Hope this stops the italics madness...

  • Rob (unverified)
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    http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060401-072918-8542r

    Bloomberg: Illegal immigrants help golfers NEW YORK, April 1 (UPI) -- New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg says golf fairways would suffer if illegal immigrants were returned to their native country.

    Yay, billionaire golfers are on your side! You're sure to win.

    As for us blue collar Americans, we'll just re-train, right?

    Bloomberg -- the new Marie Antoinette.

    "And what do those people want?"

    "A living wage and national sovereignty apart from Mexico."

    "Oy vey, let them eat golf balls!"

  • Rob (unverified)
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    Do immigrants benefit Americans, economically speaking?

    See what Edwin S. Rubenstein has to say here:

    http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/index.htm

    http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/050810_nd.htm

    The displacement of native workers by immigrants is best measured by charting the trend of Hispanic and non-Hispanic employment growth, and the ratio of the two growth rates, which we call the VDARE.com American Worker Displacement Index [VDAWDI]:

    VDAWDI rose to a record 114.4 in July, up from 114.3 in June and 112.5 in July 2004. The starting point, or base, of the index is 100.0 in January 2001.

    Final depressing note: The employment report also contained less than stellar news about personal incomes. Average hourly earnings rose 0.4 percent in July, but after adjusting for inflation, average wages were virtually unchanged from July 2004.

    The construction industry was particularly hard hit. It suffered a 1.1 percent decline in real wages over the past year despite record home building activity.

    http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/050324_nd.htm National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein Immigrants Can’t Bail Out Social Security It’s not just Vicente Fox who touts mass immigration as a means of saving Social Security. Stuart Anderson, the notorious immigration enthusiast now associated with the National Foundation for American Policy, claims that a 33 percent rise in legal immigration would reduce the program’s future funding shortfall—by a whopping one-tenth. [See The Contribution of Legal Immigration to the Social Security System]

    Hold on—one tenth?

    That’s right. When you look at the details, the financial gains claimed for mass immigration are ridiculously small.

    Social Security actuaries, the source for Anderson’s figures, calculate the trust fund’s 75-year deficit for three levels of projected net immigration: (Table 1)

    At 672,500 per year the deficit is 2.08 percent of payroll

    At 900,000 per year the deficit is 1.89 percent or payroll

    At 1,300,000 per year the deficit is 1.63 percent of payroll

    The middle figure (900,000) is about where we are now. So a sustained increase of 400,000 immigrants per year, to 1.3 million, would cut the Social Security deficit by 0.26 percent of taxable payroll, or by about 14 percent. [SSA Memorandum Changes in Level of Legal Immigration]

    In other words, according to the official calculation, an additional 30 million immigrants over the next 75 years would pare a mere 14 percent off the baseline Social Security deficit.

    Why so little bang for the immigration buck?

    Most importantly, the immigrants themselves become social security pensioners upon retirement. The much-touted benefit from immigration is actually just the initial brief one-time effect of new workers arriving who have no retired counterparts in the system. Relative to the workforce, it’s small.

    Immigrants typically earn less and therefore contribute less to Social Security than the native-born.

    Any spike in legal immigration is invariably accompanied by even larger increases in illegal immigration. Social Security acknowledges the link in its actuarial report. (Table 2.) Often, illegals work off the books and neither they nor their employers pay Social Security taxes, although their income is supposed to be subject to payroll taxes.

    In fact, Social Security’s cost projections probably overstate the benefit of immigration. Thanks to totalization agreements, foreign workers can now qualify for Social Security after working as few as 6 quarters—a far cry from the 40 quarters demanded of U.S. citizens before vesting.

    Foreigners who began working as illegals and later obtain legal status can even use their illegal earnings to qualify for Social Security. Social Security makes no effort to collect payroll taxes due on back income.

    Even if immigrants return to Mexico the Social Security check follows them. And because they are relatively low income workers, the “rate of return” on their social security contributions is higher than that of the average native worker. It’s a progressive system, offering better returns to lower incomes.

    Bush’s amnesty/ guest worker program will further exacerbate Social Security’s problems. Following the last such amnesty—the 1986 IRCA legislation—immigration surged more than three-fold, to 1.8 million per year. Most of the new immigrants had worked here illegally for years. Many promptly qualified for Social Security—i.e. were burdens, not benefits, to the Social Security system.

    There are far more illegals working in the U.S. today than in 1986, yet Social Security has not factored an amnesty into its projections. The rosy scenario lives.

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