This is nothing other than more chicken little sky is falling B.S. from the progressives! In the Middle East they don't have any "shortage" of water and they live in a desert. They just pump it out of the ocean. We could do the same thing here. Quit whining - this is just an attempt to limit development and steal away property owner's rights to develop under Measure 37 and you're a sore loser.

GT: How much money and energy do you think it would take to desalinize enough ocean water to supply the needs of Central and Eastern Oregon and pump it over the Cascades?

Do you right-wingers ever think before you make your inane knee-jerk comments?

Who cares? You stated a problem then I gave a solution and then you berated me as a "right winger". Unbelievable! We are the richest and most powerful country in the world - if the people in the Middle East can pull it off, why should we have any problem doing the same? It's just more scaremongering. What difference is it going to make whether 2 million people move into the UGB or McMinnville? It's still going to put a strain on the supply whether people move inside or outside the superfund urban ghetto. Even people in Southern California and Nevada have ample supplies of water and they live in a desert!

BTW, this is really annoying... I get this when I post from my own connection: "An error occurred... You are not allowed to post comments. " But if I use the public Wi-Fi or my cell phone it still lets me post. Why are they trying to restrict my comments?

This pretty much sums up the problem: "Rep. Jackie Dingfelder, D-Portland"

What do these Portland and Lake Oswego representatives have anything to do with farmers in eastern Oregon? Notice how these M-37 opponents are all from the urban ghetto? They have no right to dictate policy on non-urban ghetto areas.

I don't think anyone can come to a conclusion on this until the evidence in revealed. If there is an issue in certain Eastern Oregon counties, it makes no sense to require every builder to get permission (and more fees and time and red tape no doubt) from the State to dig a well.

Housing costs are already out of control and all these little roadblocks may not seem like much, but they will add up and very few will be able to afford to live here.

"desalinize ocean water and pump it over the Cascades"

LOL

This is the stuff of comic books. The completely concocted crisis with an even more concocted remedy. It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation about such nonsense. But of course if M37 can be blamed for something so be it.

The bigger crisis this State faces is the proliferation of false and misleading information permeating every policy making process and issue. On nearly every issue false information is being provided by public agency satff. In terms of M37 it has been astounding to read and hear. This latest falsehood that M37 threatens ground water supplies is one more in a long string of the "Hog farms in communities" frenzy that M37 opponents rely upon.
The only limits to the balderdash is the imaginations of unethical fanatics hell bent on forcing their will and policies upon the masses and landscape.

When the unethical Judge Mary Merten James' attempt at over turning M37 was rejected by our Oregon Supreme Court the misinformation floodgates opened. Now fully saturated with falsehoods the muddied up M37 debate will remain completely nonproductive.

GT, you state "Even people in Southern California and Nevada have ample supplies of water and they live in a desert!"

This is not true.
Read Cadillac Desert and The Great Thirst and then get back to us.

You're forgetting that other things besides humans need water. If we continue to use water at unsustainable rates, we will destroy the environment. Although we may not necessarily screw ourselves specifically due to a "water shortage," large scale environmental destruction would suck too.

(and in fact, it's already happening)

Duh.

The impact of M37 development on water supplies is real. Check out this presentation on groundwater. It cites research done when the number of claims was only 1,500-2,000, not the 7,500 claims Oregon now faces. When someone drills a new well for limited groundwater, the aquifer drops and eventually other people's wells go dry or they have to drill deeper. That simple.

And don't believe the ridiculous claims that M37's "health and safety" exemption protect water supplies. It doesn't.

Will M37 turn all of Oregon into a desert? No. But it is another developer loophole that pairs nicely with loopholes in water law.

From the Central Oregon perspective, and as one who has actually studied water consumption issues here, Russ's article UNDERPLAYS the problem with water in Central Oregon, at least in the Deschutes River basin that includes tributaries such as the Crooked River (e.g. all of Crook County where I live).

About 7 years ago, the Oregon Department of Geology determined that in Central Oregon the surface water and the ground water were inter-linked. This is due to the fractured nature of the John Day and Clarno formations with the overlay of Cascade volcanic activity. So, what does that mean?

Water in Central Oregon now has a point where it is measured. As water goes into the Wild and Scenic River area of the lower Deschutes, it must be protected per Federal law. Stream flows cannot be diminished at that point. So, if a City wants to build a new well for the next 5,000 houses being built, they must get a permit for that well. But, they can’t get the permit until they have purchased water rights for that well. All surface water rights have already been claimed. That’s right ALL surface rights are long ago claimed. Now that ground water is inter-linked to surface water, one effects the other, ground water is treated just like it was surface water. So, to get a permit for that City well, the City will need to purchase water rights from a holder of water rights. The regulations that govern this require that more water rights be purchased than will be used, I think its about 10% more, as a way to in the long term increase stream flows.

In other words, to feed residential growth, we will have to dry out farm fields and cut our ability to grow food.

In other words, there is now a determined finite limit on growth in Central Oregon. At the point where every farm field is dry, growth will stop. Many square miles of Central Oregon are under irrigation. But it is finite.

But Russ points out an exception for individual wells. -- On this point, Russ worries without much cause. There is a small problem here, but not as large as one would infer from what Russ wrote.

While some grandfathered wells exist within cities in Central Oregon, by in large the new housing is going either into subdivisions or into parcels that are mandated by an old court case from Curry County to be at minimum 5 acres in size. The large wells Russ describes are around for farm parcels, but no more of them can be created. Subdivisions must provide water as part of the requirements to be a subdivision (usually a system purchased from a city). The type of well that Russ is talking about – the individual household wells, are limited to providing water to no more than three dwellings. Under Oregon law, any system that provides water to 4 or more houses is a “Community well” that then falls under the same regulations as a city well.

And, what does that mean? Any well providing water to more than 3 houses must purchase its water rights (provided our government is doing its job and watching for this), and that includes all subdivisions. Any new parcel outside of a City on a rural parcel must be at least 5 acres in size. In farm use zones, any new parcel must be at least 20 acres in size (Legislation passed in 2003 if memory serves me).

So, while a lot of the new development in Central Oregon is covered by the existing system that limits development – subdivisions must buy water rights (or the City that they are in) – what about those 5 and 20 acre parcels? Well, rain does fall. The Powell Butte water study done back in the late 1980’s found that about one inch of rain per year penetrates the ground to recharge the aquifer in this area. The rest evaporates or becomes stream flow. I won’t bore you with the math, but 5 acres at one inch equals 136,000 gallons more or less. Since other Oregon law permits no more than a half-acre of yard irrigation per parcel from a domestic water source, this then is not a situation where the parcel used more water than the parcel creates, the household uses less water than the parcel creates. Central Oregon is just like anyplace else with the increasing use of water savings with reduced flow toilets, efficient shower heads, new reduced water-use washing machines, etc. -- Those are phasing in over time but are by-in-large present with new houses. Also, that water that is used by that house on 5 acres doesn’t just go-away. It goes into a septic system. Most of the water that goes into a septic system is evaporated – in part an offset to the evaporation that would normally take place. Some of the water does go back to ground water.

Actually, the same is true with the City sewage system. In Prineville where I am (at the edge of the City just annexed a year ago, and still on well and septic), the sewage system puts water into the Crooked River during the winter, but during low stream flows in the summer irrigated the golf course and a farm field. -- That water was not lost, it was re-used.

To the best of my knowledge, no comprehensive study has ever been made on what percentage of the water in a typical house like I have described with a well and septic system, is actually lost to the larger water system, and how much is retained. It would be a lot of work to calculate the normal evaporation in the area of a septic drain field, versus the enhanced evaporation; and to study the septic ground water recharge rate versus the well draw down rate.

In any case, the alarm that Russ brings to the issue of water use in Central Oregon is very much justified, but those 5 and 20 acre parcels are not as large a problem as Russ would have us believe. The 10% put back/stream flow enhancement regulation for the new commercial wells will in fact go a long ways to offset the development of rural parcels.

Another issue not addressed in the original posting, but arguably as important as anything mentioned there, is the expected change in seasonality of precipitation owing to climate change. Snow and glacier ice are de facto reservoirs that store water in solid form during the winter and then release it as meltwater runoff during the summer, which is of course a dry season here in most of the Pacific Northwest. Most of us the the PNW are dependent upon such runoff for our summer time water supply.

As the natural reservoirs shrink, we are likely to find ourselves faced with the prospect of more engineered reservoirs. This is an issue that is receiving a lot of attention presently in the hydrological sciences community.

what is the state of water efficiency in central and east oregon?

i know here, on the rainy side of the hill in pdx, there is only one rate for water use (for residential, anyway) which is $1.77 per 100 cubic feet of water (CCF), no matter how much you use. the willy week has an annual write-up on water wasters, some of who were literally leaking thousands of CCFs, without even realizing it.

beware of using the word "crisis"; as gt so adequately demonstrated, for every "crisis", there is a simple, stupid, and hugely expensive solution (though, we'd build more reservoirs, perhaps dams and start drinking the columbia before desalinization). if it is just a management problem, which it is, the the solution can be sane, economical and to the scale of the problem.

I am really tired of all this freaking alarmism! If you all would put your money where your mouth is, then why not just put a moratorium to all immigration into Oregon? Have your wonderful legislature declare "an emergency" like they are doing with everything else! That would completely put a stop to any new developments, no doubt. Plus if you continue to murder the babies and old people, maybe we'd even have a population DECREASE! These greenies and thousand friends idiots are disingenuous liars. All they care about is sustaining their own careers and their friends' careers who work in the government sustainability offices or NGOs like the Sierra Club or 1000 communists of Oregon. I have heard so many stories like "I moved here from Southern California in the 90's to a rural landscape so I could enjoy the wildlife and I'm appalled that the farmer who's family has lived here for 100's of years is thinking about subdividing". How selfish and "greedy" is this line of thinking? Typical liberal thinking - all for them and none for everybody else.

"The impact of M37 development on water supplies is real. Check out this presentation on groundwater."

As is so often the case with government agency testimony, recent legislative hearing testimony from OSU experts was found to contain falsehoods. And they were challenged in the hearing by alert legislators.

So that snow job on M37 and ground water is exactly what one would expect from activist bureaucrats who have no ethics. Everything from embelishment to fabrication is being used by M37 opponents. In the case of state workers is is an outrage.

The whole thing is rigged so the government bureaucrats are the ones who benefit from this asinine regulatory system. If we didn't have these stupid land use restrictions, their jobs would be in the toilet and we can't have that, now, can we? It seems that government has everyone held hostage on this and the health care issues. They have all the money in the world to build trams, light rail and "public art" but then they make housing unaffordable and don't give enough to fix the homeless problem. This is an outrage.

Maybe someone could create a special website where the water crisis deniers and the global warming deniers could gather around their own water cooler and talk?

How very open minded and progressive for you to suggest such a thing

There's plenty o' water here in Portland, and there will be for a long time into the future. If we ever got desparate, we could start drinking water from the willamette or the Columbia. This sounds like a chicken little scenario to me.

I think some of the PDX suburbs already drink out of the Willamette. Wilsonville for sure, I'm not sure if or who else.

Hawthorne, On another thread Kari declared that it doesn't matter if the human caused global warming is a complete fraud. The pandamoniumists are still right and all the policies called for from the fraud are still needed. This is a classic example of fanaticism. Pure and simple. When you try and make a case on a pack of lies, and are caught, yet cling to every notion you are an extremist fanatic. The deniers of human caused global warming will be found to be the open minded ones. The deniers of M37 catastrophe likewise. The other side is fanaticism.

GT - You have said a whole lot of stuff on this thread. It is all done at the level of a shout, and not much of it makes any sense. You deny there is a problem, but the facts speak differently. In my post above, I only discussed the Deschutes River Basin, where there is clearly a problem of a limited water supply. I didn't discuss Eastern Oregon, where there are worse problems. Some of the aquafirs in the wheat growing areas outside of Pendleton have dropped over 200 feet in elevation. -- As documented in the Oregonian more than a decade ago.

GT - you claim water is not a problem in the Middle East, which shows you are ignorant. It is a huge problem if you are a Palestinian. Israel has drilled under Palestinian lands and pretty much is taking all the water in that region. It is one of those causes of unrest that goes by in large unreported in this country, but which is very real to the people that live there. You write, "if the people in the Middle East can pull it off, why should we have any problem doing the same?" They are at war, is that what you want here?

Hawthorne writes, "Maybe someone could create a special website where the water crisis deniers and the global warming deniers could gather around their own water cooler and talk?" -- I couldn't agree more.

While you might think we have lots of water in Oregon, and we do, we are already using it. It powers dams, and provides stream flows for fish - already in conflict. It provides irrigation and water for residential use - already in conflict. It is in streams, which are seeing less stream flow as water is used; and it is in the ground, where water tables are declining.

I am more than a little weary of the uninformed telling us that we are all running around screaming crisis. This is the sort of situation that will take decades to unfold, and if we take reasonable steps now, we can avoid a lot of future pain. That isn't a crisis, that is pro-active planning. However, if those that deny like GT had their way, we will undoubtedly end up with a crisis. It is absolutely right and proper for our legislative leaders to bring together farmers and ranchers, and developers and Realtors - all to the same table, to make plans to avoid a future crisis.

When Oregon works at its best, this is what we do. Oregon at its best is a forward looking State that planfully makes its future better.

Everything is a chicken little scenario to the progressives. Take for instance how many "emergency" bills there are in the Oregon Legislature. They made the rainy day fund "an emergency" they are planning to declare "an emergency" with regard to the health issue, now water rights. Good grief! I say we declare "an emergency" and overthrow these idiots.

No concern for water crisis? Ha! We must have collectively imagined the 2001 Klamath basin water shortage then, eh.

So call up your DHS buddies and have them put me on the OHP so I will quit bothering you.

Global warming. Water Shortages.

Look, the world is coming to an end. The ONLY solution is to elect Democrats - ONLY they can save us. Keep Oregon Blue. Vote Democrat. YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!!!

Kari Kari Kari, Is anyone who isn't Blue "thoughtful" or "interesting"?

If anyone needs meds it is the "Judge Mary Merten James is smart" Club found here on BlueOregon.

You've all been pissing on the voters ever since losing the M37 vote. You praised the James'ruling as brilliant and ever since being proven foolish by our Oregon Supreme Court you have engaged in a full frontal assault on the voters and the essentailly harmless effects of M37. The Oregonian only too willing to join the misinformation campaign.

All another example of true blue fanatasism.

Mr. Chisholm's point seems pretty obvious. You can comment in a thoughtful, polite fashion, or you can comment in a thoughtless, rude fashion. As to why the latter is so popular, the anonymity of this medium would seem to be a likely cause. I have a hard time believing that some of the nastiness here would occur in face-to-face conversations.

Just saw an interesting item on the BBC about this same general issue worldwide. Although the post here is primarily about water supply, water quality is equally something we need to be thinking about.

Thanks Steve, for your report on our efforts here on the eastside. I try to give westsiders the benefit of the doubt, but as you can see, many apparently still beleive we are a part of Idaho and they are somehow "Oregon" and we but ignorant hicks. Rather amusing, really.

Many thanks to Steve for taking the time, thought and effort to reply to a couple of screaming ignoramuses, and elucidate the issue from a Central Oregon perspective.

I've been living in Klamath Falls since 1998, and have seen and heard the often vicious conflicts about water, farmers against tribes, developers against all.

This is also an area of high growth, dependent almost entirely on groundwater for residential use, and the overburdened, over allocated surface water for everything else. The "2001" water crisis isn't over, just in a less shrill period, but the rancor remains.

As a footnote...several Willamette Valley cities use the river for water, Corvallis among them.