Jeff,

I wish I could give a clear and direct answer to your question, of what inspires my generation's disengagement, but I'm afraid it's just not that easy. While a good number of us are becoming increasingly engaged, and perhaps even more so after the recent election, I believe that this still remains a minority group in the generation. Our turnout last month was barely over 50%, far short of the 2/3 I heard expectations for before the election, and of those 50% I'd wager that maybe half actually made an informed decision about the candidates they chose. (My very un-scientific poll is based on discussions held in classes leading up to the election.)

So again, where's the problem? I'd put forth the theory that the blame for my generation's disengagement in the issues you mentioned lie not too far away from your own generation's apathy, Jeff. Let's not forget that 45% of the country stayed home on Nov. 2nd, so the blame can be spread around to pretty much everyone. (Well, except Oregonians, we seemed to be pretty on top of things) And the problem that my generation has, and the problem that your generation has, is that we're getting (or not getting) the information about jobs, the econcomy, the deficit, SS, Iraq, Canadians, from the same horrible, broken source: the NEW news media. If you're getting most of your news from the NY Times, the AP, or NPR, which I'm sure most people reading this are, you're going to have a well-formed idea of those issues mentioned above, and how screwed we are on the verge of being. However, if you're watching ten minutes of cable news a day, and getting the odd headline off of the aol.com site when you're signing into your email... well, probably not going to have a good idea of why your children's children are going to be walking around a second-rate world power owing huge debts to China and Europe. The good majority of our fellow countrymen/women get their news in bits and chunks like that, if at all. But I understand that, I realize that all this time I've got on my hands at college allows me a luxury that most people don't get, and that I myself might not have in a couple years. So the onus for civic disengagement needs to fall, partly at least, on the mass news media, who should be doing more than devoting most of an hour to the latest celebrity murder trial. Like I said, the answer is very, very complicated with more than a few villains, but this is one step would could be a start.

Amen

Excellent post, Christopher. I think we have to remember that the movement back then took years to develop. The fact that you are writing and thinking about these issues could be part of the early stage of a similar movement, although there is no reason to think history has to repeat itself in exactly the same way. We had a few aware people like yourself around in the earliest days of the movement, then we had 'teach-ins' to raise awareness of what was happening among a broader group. Action, and the support for action, came later. I remember seeing some of the earliest activist students leaving Ann Arbor on a South-bound bus for a 'freedom ride' around 1960. I thought they were naive to believe that they could effect change in a social system. Years later I was marching on Washington, we had a civil rights bill, and the war president was being driven out of office. I have thought all along that the absence of a draft makes a huge difference on the campuses. And the neocons and Bushies have gone to great lengths to hide the body-bags, the "grisly scenes" of war, the civilian casualties, and the enormous financial drain. But actually, I was quite impressed by the activism of young people in last month's election. I've also witnessed the bicycle movement, the 'critical mass' rides, etc. which are something new, and I'm not discounting them the way I did the early bus rides. And we have this political blogosphere - a great innovation, and strong gay rights and environmental movements. We took to the streets over this Irag war before it was even launched, along with vast numbers of people world-wide, and there were a lot of young protestors. Yes, some young people appear to be slumbering through it all, just as many other groups are, and many people did back then too, but young people are not going to let their world be destroyed. As the Bushies carry on with their agenda, students may get further into the action stage, and, if so, we'll see more of the energy and creativity that young people have to contribute, in whatever form it takes. Or maybe things will get better before then, but I'm sorry to say I don't think so. Let's consider too that in retrospect people think the sixties were a big party. In some ways they were, but the party was driven by the smoldering fires that you describe and angst like we're experiencing now, which is damned uncomfortable and can not be tolerated indefinitely without some reaction to it. Actually, I woke up this morning thinking that what we're going through now is very much like the early- or mid- sixties with that tension in the gut. But that's just my frame of reference. Who knows what the next wave will be like, except that we can be pretty sure there will be one? Dean

One reason is that many students are busy working two, three, four jobs just in order to attend school. Then there's classwork, family, etc. The average college student today is not 18-22 years old. 70 percent or so of 18-25 year olds aren't in school and they're working two, three, four jobs. This may have not been the case thirty-five years ago.

I'm 37 and my political awareness and activism has always made me odd among fellow GenXers. Those of us who that give a shit enough to be involved have always been the minority. Don't wait.

I'm grateful for the civil rights, peace and other movements of the 60s and 70s. I'm even even a bit envious I wasn't able to join the Freedom Rides, take part in the Poor People's Campaign or work with Cesar Chavez. But I I hate it when progressive Boomers glorify them. They weren't the best of times. Smart, rich kids got deferments. Poor kids went to war. And for the most part, the music sucked.

Very thoughtful post, Chris.

I'm a Vietnam vet who joined the Navy soon after graduation from High School in 1965. No thoughts about right or wrong, only that I should serve my country. 10 years of service later and I realized that I could no longer continue and left the Navy in 1975.

Most of my generation felt much as Chris's generation. In the beginning, we didn't see any impact until the draft started. I spent my 10 years in Naval Communication and the experience made a lasting impression on me and my politics.

I suspect that as this President continues with his agenda, the young - those that are going to really feel the impact of the continuing need for warm bodies for this war on terrorism - will end up being the driving force behind the changes that are as inevitable as they were in the late 60's and early 70's.

OH MY GOD! My post will agree with Mr.Leonard, and Doretta.

    AMEN! said Randy.....WOW!

Folks, 9II didn't hit close enough to home, home being SE PDX, the PEARL, Fourth an Broadway. sometimes I think it should have.

We cannot relate to pictures of the potential of a friend or relative doing a "swan dive" from the 99th floor of the WTC, but some of us, us being AMERICANS,not red nor blue. or black etc, we will never even know how some of those people died.

While I have gotten off on the wrong foot with about all of you, I came here in dispute with Mr. Leonard on the Joint terror task force and another issue of safety he and I will settle some day.

The grand scheme of thing's normally discussed here is about our "rights".

Here it is a simple as I can put it.Do you wish to be in the position of some of the familys of the WTC suvivor's fighting for more protection of our very lives, not just our rights?

The president said, clearly to us all,"This will be a war unlike we have ever seen!"

The wars before were simple to contest compared to a true world wide scope with the badguys unwilling to stop unless they convert us to their thinking with the end result being our death which they swore to complete if we don't bend!

Bush had no choice, but to fight on offensive war,defensive war clearly isn't winnable.

The, "CAN WE TALK" position, is not debatable either.

So, yes, we are spoiled, we are too far and yet not close enough to feel New Yorks real pain, and unless we all work and fight as one.WE WILL FEEL IT HERE.

Few of us have given much thought to what it means to be enslaved or tortured or to live under a totalitarian government that monitors what people say, jails them for speaking their mind, controls the smallest aspects of their lives.

Posted by: doretta | December 4, 2004 09:57 PM

Oh please,spare me this as I have said in other posts, you folks better come off this or you will lose again.

We are strong enough to handle anything, Period.

We are not strong enough,if we don't have a country to debate these issues if downtown Portland is a waste area for 5 miles around.

Pioneer Square will be too "hot", and not from the intense forensic discussion's.

That is your problem, blame others, don't fight,refuse to accept reality in the face of the most dangerous enemey we have ever had. This issue of a "outlaw" goverment here won't have a chance if we are dead. The wasteland is your minds right now, look it in the eye, face the fact that the next hit too us will be worse if we do not take all steps to avoid a worse 911.

Jack:

"The wasteland is your minds right now, look it in the eye, face the fact that the next hit too us will be worse if we do not take all steps to avoid a worse 911."

"The wasteland is your minds right now..."

Just as the administration's deluded beliefs of how to "win" this "war" have been proven wrong time after time after time, all while they are cooking up a truly sinister brew of hatred of America in Iraq and have a mindset that they must simply be resolute and stay the course as our military is put under increasing strain.

Its not that we have to "take all steps" to protect ourselves. It's that we must take the right steps, avoid the wrong steps. You seem to be willing to turn a blind eye towards the recent collosal failures of American policy trust the President on his current course.

Is that a faith-based initiative of yours or is there some other explanation?

FUCK ALL YOU LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVE JERKS

THE SOB THAT POSTED IN MY NAME.NEED TO BE BANNED, Jack Peek

HEY Kari, Is this the plan to get me banned?

You or someone with the blog made the f post, I DIDN'T! Fix the person who did.

I don't think there's going to be a draft. Not anytime soon anyway. We have enough people living in poverty who see the military as the only way out to ensure enough recruits. In the next four, eight years, we'll only have increasing numbers of those with that rational. I think that the pResident will be able to keep that promise, only because his economic policies are so good at creating poverty.

To the person that impersonated Jack Peek.

Very, very uncool.

And to those who can't resist the personal jab... Either that stops or I stop posting.

My thanks Mr.Leonard. JP

Never hurts to ask, Can we talk about license idea on Cascadia's place in SE? JP

To Randy:

 Let me repond by saying this, One:Not a Koolaid Bush guy.

  There is no perfect war plan, ever!

  The fact we have not had an attack on USA, speaks volumes for our security plans and changing too meet new problems of avoiding a new 9II.

  Why do we need to minimize any idea/rule/weapon/goal at all, to protect us all?

  What "rules" will Al-Queda play by?

 The politics of the course of the left seems not to make us safer. We can allow any group right here in Portland the ACLU'S best protection, which could, I REPETE could be used to hide from the FBI/ CIA,and local law, the tools to catch a terror act ..and this is really important.BEFORE, a plan is executed.

To Mr. Leonard,(sorry Randy), Do not put these groups ahead of us.

Thanks "TRUE" I'am on AOL. Don't know the IP route, but I didnt do the deed.

Jack,

Trying to convert the 'heathens' is never a good idea.

Your view of the world and mine are so far apart that for the most part you come across as a kook. You may not be, but coming onto an 'in your face' progressive site with your rhetoric only manages to piss some people off.

I see a bogus war on terrorism, you see a dire threat. I see an adminstration slowly destroying our liberties, you see a dire threat. I see our country becoming hated and distained and you see a dire threat.

Do you understand the difference?

KOOKS, HEATHENS, which side do you fit on?

Jerry, I know it's hard why someone like me is too be understood. The issue I have detailed on the dangerous grouphome in my neighborhood is exactally that same here, no one see a threat, eveyone wants the "rights" of 5 violent men protected.but care less about 400 little kids. Hello, is that a sane thing to do? The idea that Bush is out to totally line his pockets at the expense of dead soldiers is nuts.

How much money can one man spend in a life time?

The same reason I see a threat in my neighborhood, is the same reason I see a threat too us all, because there is one.

I have always been the person not to be able to stand by an let someone suffer or die if I could help.

I feel like I have cement shoes on an can't move, yet see a car coming, with a little kid in the middle of the street.

If you don't see a real threat in the fight against terror and want the ACLU to protect you, be my guest.

The possibility of our own laws being used to kill us is more possible each day.

The idea you don't see that ISLAM has been hijacked, and those that did the deed have one goal is too scary for words.

So, if a person like me, who cares, stops, will you be around just in case the stuff hits the

fan? If your not, please let the rest of us know now.

Dear True, please consider the post for Jerry, applys as well to yours. Thanks

To all Blue posters:

What "rules" will Al-Queda play by?


 The answer to the above is none!

Thank you first True.

The threat is real,there is a threat that as you say I choose to ignore of the "occupation" of our country. Ok, lets say GWB'S total goal in life is total dictatorship, you think that for sure.

Then as God is my witness,(can I still say that) I will stand with you to defeat that what ever it takes.

Then where the hell will you be,if I'am right?

The arguement, the whole debate point as I posted last night is this, you and the host of people here are more ready to defend the rights of 5 violent, criminally insane men to walk with 400 kids in a grade school or the groups that way too many sources of anti-terror experts say that Portland, Oregon is a hot bed of terror cell activity.

Please note, that the junior senator of Oregon made a similar comment and lost major points for it, and was right "f--king on.

To all Blue posters: What "rules" will Al-Queda play by? The answer to the above is none!

So the answer is to do things the way they do?

True say's we can't do things the way they do.

Hey,my legal minded wife sort of agrees's with you for your record, but then when she talks with her son, who in Jan. will go back to Iraq for the 4th time, and hears from her daughter who will go to Afganistan in Jan. too, she backs off, her son who nearly was killed last time tells her that if we don't fight, like them, we will die.

Chris,

A few thoughts.

First, from the "post materialist" school of public opinion: the reason this generation is different from the 60s generation is economic insecurity. The 60s generation had experienced nearly two decades of unparalleled economic growth after WWII. Many in this generation have too many basic economic concerns.

Second, this generation comes of age after a fundamental conservative shift in the US (and in the industrialized world), and in many ways reflect the period. The 60s generation came of age with memories of FDR, Ike, and JFK. This generation was shaped by Reagan, Clinton, and two Bush's. The percentage of youth that self-identify themselves as liberal has declined dramatically, both in this country and in Europe.

Third, it is my sense (and I do have a lot of scattered empirical evidence) that Americans have becoe a lot more more inward looking, less socially minded, more self-interested than 40 years ago. (To cite just one example, are the children of suburbia and exurbia while the college students of the 60s hailed primarily from NE, Midwest, and western urban areas.)

Last comment: the draft is a non-issue because it is a non-starter. If you talk to anyone in the Pentagon, they love the all-volunteer army. They have no desire to go back to a force comprised of people who don't want to fight. Yes, there are serious issues with the force structure right now, but a reinstituted draft is way, way, way down on the list.

In getting back to the post's original subject, I'd like to point out that perhaps my generation's lack of participation points to the self-interested childhoods so many of us enjoyed.

We have never been all that concerned with what doesn't sit in front of us, entertain or amuse us. We grew up on cartoons and just say no ads. Our parents, under Reaganomics, saw this self-interest peak as everything that could be "de-institutionalized" and removed from the public sector was. Why? Because removing something from the public sector effectively removes it as a public concern. Mentally ill? Not my problem. Public radio? Not for me, I ain't paying it. Military service? Nope, I got a car note and a liberal arts degree. We need a return to a shared interest: the common good.

To think of the common good is to think that maybe, just maybe, what we do as individuals actually resonates elsewhere. To think of the common good may prevent you from taking a 20 minute shower. To think of the common good may lead you to write a letter to your congressperson. To think of the common good may ask us to question leadership when it cannot present logical reasons. To think of the common good may cause some televisions to turn off, neighborhood associations to swell, and dissent to solidify.

To think of the common good is dangerous to some administrations.

I'm reminded of a quote by Barbara Jordan, one of the best uniters I've read: "A spirit of harmony can only survive if each of us remembers, when bitterness and self-interest seem to prevail, that we share a common destiny." She also said "If the society today allows wrongs to go unchallenged, the impression is created that those wrongs have the approval of the majority."

God bless that woman.

I'd like to add Jesse, along with Christopher, to my list of reasons to have hope for the future and reasons to believe that the future may be informed by the past.

As a tail-end Boomer, and a student of Rhetoric, perhaps I can remind Chris that the draft was just one of many issues that galvanized the young in the 60's.

I believe one element you need to account for is the sense of alienation that built up during the 50's and was expressed through the Beats and the protests symbolized by James Dean.

But what really started the protest movement was not the draft, but the Free Speech protests at Cal-Berkeley. The success of that movement, and the clearly oppressive reaction of authority showed both what was wrong and what could be done about it.

The Civil Rights protests graphically showed right here at home how terribly our government could and did treat people. It gave many people a sense of urgency you can't get now.

We don't see the bodies from Iraq, we don't see the oppression of the detainees, college students are not given a clear view of the enemy and so assume there isn't one. The problems of our society are just due to vague, impersonal, inevitable forces that no one can change because no one in the end is answerable.

In the 60's, event after event both showed change was possible and that there was a need for it. I remember Kent State - the shock and horror of it. I could be killed just for speaking out - here in America, despite the First Amendment.

We have a much more sophisticated, amoral and Orwellian enemy now. It is too easy to turn a blind eye, and too hard to survive. Those who are really suffering don't protest by sit-ins, they protest by taking meth.

Yes, I know the preceding are generalities that neither tell the whole story or are totally accurate, but I felt they may have enough truth to help further the discussion.

It also needs to be said that a lot of the ideas and sentiments that animated the protests of the 60s have since been rejected by vast numbers of the population, and in fact there's very strong activism on the other side that has in large measure grown up in opposition to the views of those times.

Those folks know that the protesters were too often sympathetic to genuinely Orwellian enemies.

What are those ideas and sentiments that have been rejected, Anthony?

From my standpoint, many of the positive and negative sentiments from the protests of the 60s have been mainstreamed and polticized, effectively quelling indignance and major dissent.

Jesse,

I think you're right to a certain degree and I agree (if I read you correctly) that protest need not be continued in favor of sentiments that have been "mainstreamed." For example, there is practically unanimity on the chief issues of the civil rights protests, renderiing protest obsolete.

On the other hand, a lot of the domestic anti-Americanism and pro-revolutionary sentiment has been rejected by many that found it appealing at one time. Many others who have come of age since find much of that sentiment repugnant. The ideology behind such sentiments was more plausible before it became clear what people such as the Vietnamese communists and the Khmer Rouge were really like. With the collapse of Soviet communism, revolutionary fervor seems all the more remote and nostalgic. Few are those who sport images of Che Guevara who even know anything about him, let alone advocate his views.

Lots of Americans still buy into a softer version of the idea of America as a major source of evil in the world --manifested by the tendency to "blame America first"-- but many more question that view, and its pedigree, than in the past.

Certainly nobody's going to take over college buildings anymore, since the academic establishment is perhaps the staunchest redoubt of the old ideas.

Anthony,

I think we differ on just what happened to turn the tide against pro-revolutionary sentiments. I think, in large part, we did it by enfolding the source of some of the 60s frustration (racism, sexism and equality) into our policitcs, crafting weak policy and calling it a day.

Racism has been institutionalized, sexism has moved to subtler realms, and there is a backlash against those who claim they are still entrenched. So, to me, serious reform is needed. But social reform is the hardest thing because it requires engagement. We've forgone engagement for many other things.

The saddest thing for me to think is that for many of those who marched decades years ago and even one year ago, the compelling reason may have been because, essentially, everyone else was.

Politics and policy mean little to many people. They want cheap everything and more of it. I think it was Winona Ryder in Reality Bites who said, "my parents sold their revolution for a pair of running shoes."

We all have, in my opinion.

An institutionalized racism compatible with two cabinet officers of African ancestry, and sexism in forms too elusive to mention? Truly, it astonishes me how little what has been achieved is appreciated. Can you really believe this society has not come a great distance?

The fact that you show little interest in dicussing the ideology of revolution itself shows how much things have changed.

I'm not sure what you mean by "weak policy" but it seems to me rather that there has been progress on things that really matter. I'm glad that now, whatever your discontentment, you emphasize "reform" rather than revolution. Passionate, intelligent people such as yourself used to entertain more radical solutions more readily.

I don't think you should be so hard on people who aren't as politically oriented as yourself. I never saw "Reality Bites," but the Ryder character strikes me as churlish. Being able to enjoy mundane personal activities is no small achievement. As a famous counterrevolutionary once said, "it is with infinite caution that any man ought to venture upon pulling down an edifice which has answered in any tolerable degree for ages the common purposes of society, or on building it up again, without having models and patterns of approved utility before his eyes."

Lousy running shoes would have been the least of the troubles the Guevaraphiles fantasized about inflicting on us.

As I have been asked by Kari to stop posting here(seems I "upset" some souls) TOUGH!

You know what,so am I just a little upset too.

The protests, the marches,here on Fridays and in the past during the 60s', were great examples of the decending disent of the liberal left in this nation.

We win wars, by fighting..until the endtimes come(which is soon) you people will never get it, as President Bush said,"we are at war, we as in Dec. of 1941 Didn't start in as we didn't on 911.

We are facing a foe, that doesn't care about rights of you or yours, they want too cut your head off and hand it to the guy taking the video.

What scares the crap out of people on the " RIGHT" is that you people would provide aid an comfort in the form of a movie, or outright support by not standing with the rest of us that intend to fight .

I know, (peace-love- group hugs) will make it all better, tell that to the guy handling the knife in those sick videos.

Please, be my guest.

<h1></h1>

Chris asks Where are the protests? ==> On the Salem steps of the Capitol, Sunday, Noon.

Sunday, December 12th. 51 Capital March, Salem, Oregon.

State Coordinator: Peter J. Hamer (Estacada) Email: [email protected] Capital City: Salem March Begins: NOON Meet on the steps of the capital building

SUPPORT the Ohio recount; demand fair elections; just say "no" to black box voting! ORGANIZATIONS: Democracy for America (DFA) Salem ActionSpeaks Portland www.truthinvoting.org Join fellow patriotic Oregonians on the steps of the capitol building in Salem at high noon on December 12th. Our speakers include Johnny Marie of Action Speaks Portland and Katy Eyman, political activist and wife of Secretary of State Bill Bradbury. Folksinger Therese Carlton will perform on stage. Stand in solidarity with voters across the nation to support and defend our democracy! Bring your signs, your orange ribbons, and your passion in this grassroots exercise ....

<hr/>

Thin soldiers and Bush's Rummy We're seeing the fascist fangs. This Sunday I hear the drumming War Red in Oh Hi Oh. (apologies to Crosby Still Nash and Young, 'Ohio.')

Ohio Election Investigation Thwarted by Surprise Blackwell Order Dayton, Ohio Friday December 10, 2004 On Friday December 10 two certified volunteers for the Ohio Recount team assigned to Greene County were in process recording voting information from minority precincts in Greene County, and were stopped mid-count by a surprise order from Secretary of State Blackwell’s office. The Director Board of Elections stated that “all voter records for the state of Ohio were “locked-down,” and now they are not considered public records.” The volunteers were working with voter printouts received ....

<hr/>

Or, you know, 'we're bringing the war, back home ...' I struck up a conversation today with one of those slackers you mentioned, Chris. With his baseball cap, and sweatshirt hood pulled over that, goatee and flitting eyes, jumping between cars pumping gas. He's got a job, though, (if you can call it that), and he is on the job so he's not a total slacker. I pulled up, opened my car door, swung my feet out and unlocked my gas cap from the driver's seat, and started in yammering at him as he was keying the pump with my order. "...I sure want to see five dollars a gallon, and soon, like before spring." He knitted his eyebrows at me. "What? That wouldn't be good." He nervous-giggles, notices my gas-thrifty import car. "Why do you want that?" "It'd just be the same price as the rest of the world," I said. "Yeah, I know," he says, and glances at the status of the pump display.

I said, "It'd just be fair. I know you can't pump your own gas in Oregon, but sometimes I like to grip the hose real tight...," as I lean and reach out and match action to words, "...and just feel it... (concentrating on my hose-grip hand), ...and you can feel it pulsing with the soldiers' blood." He flinches, and says, "Yeah, I know. It's bad for me." Then turns his head as another car arrives at one of his pumps. I said, "Bush don't have to be president. If they count the votes in Ohio, Kerry wins and it flips everything. Then you don't have to go. Ohio's Secretary of State stopped the recount yesterday ..." By now he's decided I am someone he wants to get away from quick -- he's trying to hurry the pump nozzle through its last few dimes, the other car has its window down, he looks and turns one foot that way, and I'm just about to be cut off. "...against the law; he said the ballots were 'locked down' and no longer were public records ...." The no-slack gas pumper didn't understand a word I said and left me right there. 'Clatter,' the nozzle in the cradle; 'swidge,' my gas cap on; 'pling,' my fuel door shoved shut; and sprint, he is was.

...Ohio Revised Code Title XXXV Elections, Sec. 3503.26 that requires all election records to be made available for public inspection and copying. ORC Sec. 3599.161 makes it a crime for any employee of the Board of Elections to knowingly prevent or prohibit any person from inspecting the public records filed in the office of the Board of Elections. Finally, ORC Sec. 3599.42 clearly states: “A violation of any provision of Title XXXV (35) of the Revised Code constitutes a prima facie case of election fraud within the purview of such Title.”( Contact Information: [email protected] ) ...

But I noticed his pain as I drove out of sight -- when he took the nozzle and put it in the other car's tank he held his extra hand out in the air at shoulder height so it didn't touch the hose -- scary christmas to all and to all a good fright.

Gotta get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down, should'a been done long ago. What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground ... - 'Ohio'

<h1></h1>

<h2>If you wanted further evidence of the decrepitude of the protest movement, Tenskwatawa provides it.</h2>