Nelson Mandela should have moved, Martin Luther King, Jr. should have moved, as should every person who has opposed oppression in their country. For that matter, these leaders' followers should also have left. Right?

The Bush administration is garnering support for reasons that I find unfathomable. But there's a lot of really good opposition, and the only way to take the guy out is to bind together. So, Eeyore, buck up and pin your tail back on.

Weird coincidence. I actually just took my Dad to the airport today for a 12-day trip to New Zealand. He has not-so-jokingly joked about moving there himself.

I like Jonathan's point. Someone has to stay to fight the good fight.

Moving away would only save you or your children temporarily. Eventually, the ethos of the Bush Administration will spread throughout the world if left unchecked.

I swear I'm not a conspiracy theorist...

You can run but you can't hide.

I'm not sure I'd want, in the (unlikely ... right?) event that American leadership is so stupid as to encourage more people to want to kill Americans, to be someplace where I stood out as The New American On The Block.

And it would make me feel like one slimy, plague-carrying rat indeed to walk away from something that's spreading filth and desperation across the globe to nestle down in somebody else's nice clean environment and exploit the social services they've worked to build.

Of course, I'm Catholic. We have a highly honed guilt reflex.

But I don't think it's excessive to say that every American citizen shares responsibility for the actions and attitudes of the American government. Even those of us who never asked for citizenship. Think of it as the toddling baby brother your mom coerced you into watching at the crowded county fair. If he slips away and demonstrates his potty training under a table loaded with handmade quilts, don't you think you have some responsibility for getting it cleaned up?

Oh for Pete's sake:

Stop yer whining and do something useful.

My ancestors first came to this country around 1680 and since then they've been fighting to make it a better place. Through the civil war and the labor and agrarian struggles of the 19th Century to the great depression, WWII, and civil rights movement in the last century.

For my own part, nothing I could ever do could compare with the sacrifices that my grandfather made for his family and country during the great depression and WWII. I for one am not going to run now just because the meanies are cutting public education and charging me money to visit state parks.

Look at the bright side. Another four years of Bush will probably destroy the Republican party beyond recognition. The back biting is already starting and he won't be able to hide from his mistakes much longer. If he wins again they'll soon be at each other's throats like a pack of rabid wolves.

It won't help. The storm troopers will find you no matter where you go. The CIA has already implanted a transmitter in your teeth..

Leslie,

I feel old. I recall sharing many of the same thoughts when Reagan was elected and then reelected. So many of us said we'd move, and you know what, virtually none of us did.

What I am going to write now may be heresy, but here it comes: it won't be thais t bad. The world won't end if Bush is reelected. The American president is actually fairly limited in power (compared to other presidential and parliamentary systems). Much of your day to day life is controlled by city, county, and state governments. You should never make a life-changing decision based on who sits in the Oval Office. Remember, what goes around comes around.

Yes, you have been living in a bubble. In fact, America is, and has always been, a deeply conservative, individualistic, capitalist, and religious nation. Get used to it, or as you write, get out.

That being said, America is still one of the greatest places in the world to live. New Zealand may sound exotic and fantastic, and more power to you if it's the right place for you and your children.

This reminds me of certain people that when faced with being in a bad relationship, want to jump into the arms of the next nice looking guy that walks down the street without regard to their current bad relationship.

Which is inevitably their downfall and why the cycle would continue relationship after relationship- irregardless of the nice guy or whomever is their new focus, it's the willingness to just say 'f*** it' and leave instead of facing up to themselves and their part in it all.

Which is not say, I may never move to Canada. I love Canada. I spend as much time as I can in B.C. I get Canadien humour. I love Kids in the Hall and The Tragically Hip. BUT none of this is contingent on the way things are now in my own country. I have always loved Canada since I was 7 1/2 years old and visited Victoria. So I won't move there because it's convenient, because my own country is sucking it up; I would only move because I truly loved it there.

I wouldn't be running away from my last bad relationship. I would be taking stock of myself, my feelings, my responsibilities and making a choice to go into the new relationship because I actually liked them for themselves.

I came to Australia to pursue a long-held dream of spending some time here. I came on a student visa for a year's study, I met a man (as you do) fell in love and got married.

I continue to vote in the US and contribute to campaigns (where I can) -- I don't feel I've abandoned some sort of sacred duty by settling here. I feel like I've broken out of the American media bubble and now live in the world.

Why shouldn’t Americans -- descendents of migrants chasing a dream of a better life -- chase that dream to New Zealand or Canada or where ever. Immigrants to America take advantage of what has been built by those who came before why shouldn't migrants from America become New Zealanders and enjoy the privileges that come with it.

There are places in this world with universal health care, where children are not caught bringing guns into schools, where relatively few people go to sleep hungry, where women needing abortions need not walk a gauntlet of hateful people, where the teaching of evolution is not controversial. Australia has plenty of problems, it's certainly no Eden – the living conditions for many Aboriginal people, for one example, is frightful. But it’s certainly more to my taste than America. And frankly, America itself would be a far better place if more Americans got out of the country long enough to see the world though someone else’s eyes. That applies to progressives and conservatives alike. I thought of myself as a fairly broad minded, worldly person living in America but these past four years have opened my eyes and mind in ways I hadn’t expected.

Good luck to you, Leslie. Maybe you should explore a long-term (like a year) temporary move to get a taste of it, see if it meets your expectations – depending on what you do for a living it may not be too difficult to arrange. New Zealand is lovely, you may want to consider Tasmania as well. The Lonely Planet Thorn Tree message board often has considerable discussion on these questions and may be a good source of information for you.

I don't see anything wrong with leaving, but make sure you don't leave because the TV, the Web, the radio, tells you everything is going to hell. Look around your neighborhood, walk the streets of Portland, is it really so bad yet? I do see the US on a downward spiral and if Bush gets in again there is the potential for some really nasty stuff to come down, but until those things start to effect YOUR own life, try and enjoy the NW. It still is one of the bast places in the world, but won't be for long if all the good people split. Don't let them get you down.

Well, I recomend to you the delights of Central Mexico in the highlands. Spanish is an easy language, for centuries the people have proven far more resistant to assholes than amerianusans, it is the source of tequila, and one can always go to Cuba for first rate medical care....hasta la vista...

Funny.. My other half and I have also talked about moving to Canada, but...

After 20+ years with Intel for both of us, both having been laid off and starting our own business, things just starting to go our way, it would be hard to walk away.

We've survived the corrupt Nixon era, the mindless Reagan era and I expect we'll survive the return of GWB, if it happens.

Somebody has to stick around and be the vocal opposition, and I'm enough of an optimist to believe that in the end, this country and it's leaders won't stray too far from the ideals that created it.

P.S. I left Orygun 25 years ago and ain't missed that place, for sure...

But Ripper, where did you move to?

But Ripper, where did you move to?

I should add, Australia is no bastion of freedom and liberalism. After all, that country did produce Rupert Murdoch.

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Yeah, I'll say what he's saying. The 'optimism' that assumes a couple centuries (a century? fifty years?) of rosey scenario and intrinsic American natural goodness, purity, and durable derring-do is all going to be all right and stay us through a risible couple of terms of Bush the Imbecilic -- that whole Pollyanna panorama is head-in-the-clouds head-in-the-sand as to today's affairs in motion and what's at stake. Napoleon. Your country.

Napoleon was like Ghengis Khan, with guns. Hitler was like Napoleon, with airplanes and chemical gas. Bush is like ... uh, actually, Bush IS a moron mouth-puppet and Cheney is like Hitler, with spy satellites, cruise missiles, strategic nuclear deterrents, and ... and ... (wait for it) ... and single-handed control of the world's oil supply. With Cheney's second term permission, you get to keep your business next year, (else: not), and you should be able to get by on your gas and fuel ration stamps.

Yeah, I know, whoever's in the Oval Office at the White House hasn't made a hill o' beans difference in day-to-day life or retirement plans of an average American -- Uncle Sam's nephew Normal -- ever ever before. But then, nobody ever mailed weapons-grade anthrax spores from the CIA to the U.S.Senate and sidelined the Capitol for a month of micro-fumigation, (and listening device planting?), either. Heads up: We ain't in baseball-and-apple-pie America anymore. Take a look: It's the Evil Office at the Fright House. Hey, your business probably'd be okay if the Post Office shut down for a month, eh? Just following orders. Stay tuned to your TV for instructions.

I guess the part I don't get is how do you run away? There is no 'away' corner if the earth is round. And there are some wonderful wonderful places to be around it. And what a lot of nephews and nieces, Norms and Normas need to do is go some of those places and get broadened travelling. Just get a passport, if your name's not on the restricted list, and grab a plane, if your name's not on the no-fly list, and go. I understand how to, and I think you can, go TO a place. I don't get, and I doubt it's practical, trying to go away FROM a place. The world is round. Take flight in some direction and you come right back around to where you started.

If you want to go TO Canada, it's fun, it's beautiful. But you can't go FROM the U.S.

Especially troubling is that U.S. car traffic exhaust fumes is melting glaciers in the Alps and ice shields in Antarctica. It doesn't seem that those places are where to find a solution. You got a problem with that? Maybe Bush can make it disappear. Or you.

'He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good ...' So you better not pout. You better not cry. Black Dick Cheney is coming to town. Tomorrow.

While Rupert Murdoch is a product of Australia he's a citizen of the United States and resident of New York.

I'd be more tempted to leave the state because of what the "red-meat" wing of the R party is doing to this state-not because of whomever happens to be president.

Given the tendency to hysteria amply demonstrated in this thread, it's no wonder the Democrats aren't doing better. What balanced person would want to convert to that religion? America is a great country for too many reasons to mention. And what's bad about America isn't just the Republicans' fault.

As an immigrant who's seen a fair chunk of the world, there are few places I would consider living in outside this country (New Zealand certainly has its attractions). Furthermore, if I could vote, I'd vote Republican precisely because I believe the Left has done so much harm in this country.

That said, what I'd really prefer is both a Democratic and Republican party purified of their more extreme elements, or at least with more reasonable elments dominating. Then we could have a cordial and intelligent discussion about what government should (or should not) do, and how. Polarization blinds us to what the other side has to say that's worthwhile.

While Rupert Murdoch is a product of Australia he's a citizen of the United States and resident of New York.

I know. I was just being cheeky.

Personally, based on the experience of my wife's friend who emigrated to Australia (not from the US, however) you should go.

That way you could experience the Universal Health Care system that you need to be dying to access immediately or otherwise wait 6 months, unless of course you want real medical care and then you can come to the US like the Canadians do.

In addition, you could labor at a low wage since the economic growth and wealth creation is basically at a standstill thanks to 2/3 of everyone's income paying taxes.

I may be mocking, but the average lifestyle in the US is the best in the world for a country our size and with a min tax burden.

In response to "raging red," waiting lists are a problem with most public health care systems including Canada's but that country gets a lot more bang for their health care buck than the US. Canada spends about 10% of their GDP on health care (vs 13.5% in the US) but they manage to cover everyone. Moreover, Canada's average life expactancy is several years higher than in the US . . . so it seems to work.

My bigger fear is that the US is slowly but surely moving away from the rest of the democratic world. One example. ALL of Europe, Canada, Oceania, Turkey . . . banned capital punishment long ago. Has the US transformed into a hard society . . . something between the modern democracies that were our traditional allies and China?

Make that, in response to "Steve." Sorry raging red.

while I'm at it I should add one thing. Guns. Big, bad, assault guns. Another differnce between the US and the rest of the world. 9/13 . . . and Bush did nothing to extend the ban.

At least in Canada or New Zealand I can labor at a low wage and see a doctor when I need to see one. I'm afraid all that "economic growth" you are talking about has been a gift to the high wage earners in the US. I don't see many people at the bottom end benefiting from it much these days.

In response, if you can find someone who has been denied medical, I could agree with you. However, hospitals are able to help indigent patients by raising the rates for those of us with medical insurance.

As far as economic growth, I was referring to Australia being at a standstill with about 15-20% unemployment vs. 5.5% in the US.

Steve, OECD standardized unemployment rates (http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/13/18595359.pdf) confirm the US does indeed enjoy low unemployment. But Australia is also low at 5.7% (not 15-20%). Leslie's dear New Zealand is at 4.0% and Canada is at 7.2%.

As far as economic growth, the US has a good record though I believe Canada, Australia and NZ have outpaced the US in recent years thanks partly to high commodity prices.

But the issue here may be values. Why is the US drifting so far from the other democracies on issues such as the death penalty, guns, health care etc?

The US is a bad place to live because of the death penalty, guns (presumably you're referring to legal guns and not, say, lax penalties for illegal gun possession and use) and healthcare? Surely you have more substantial reasons.

Steve,

A decent percentage of personal bankruptcies in this country are filed due to unpaid medical bills. The expense of paying for medical care out-of-pocket puts people in the position of making choices that no one in this prosperous country should have to make.

Hospitals do provide some charity care to the very poor, but the uninsured often do not seek care until they are very ill because they cannot afford it. The medical care is then more expensive. Access to regular care for everyone would end up being cheaper for all of us, and result in more healthy people throughout our society. I agree that it will be a big headache to set up and figure out, but the end results seem so much better than what we have now.

See this from the Seattle PI for a look at healthcare & bankruptcy in Washington state:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/179456_bankruptcy25.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=0

Try this link for statistics by state on who and how many have health insurance: http://statehealthfacts.kff.org

Also, this is a meeting announcement, but has lots of stats & information on the local healthcare situation:

http://www.mchealth.org/cic/

I moved up to Portland from California...2 years ago now, to escape having to raise children in the industrial hell hole called Los Angeles.

I've certainly considering moving to Vancouver BC in the event of a Bush victory.... but I doubt that my wife and I would really do it.

I really did stay out of the country for most of the Reagan era, and the Bush crowd is much more dangerous than even Reagan ever was.

But I'm older now, we have this house and this mortgage, and I know from living abroad that I really am an American in some kind of spiritual/cultural sense. It isn't so easy to just start over in a "foreign land".... even one where English is spoken.

So I huddle with my like minded friends as the neofascist fury blows hard out of Washington and I pray.

If "we" progressives leave that's a concession to the forces of evil in Washington.

...and so I'm staying... partly because I'm not young enough to go galavanting off to Canada, but also because Portland is so much better than LA, and because I know from life experience I'd be a REAL foreigner anywhere else, and I know from life experience that that can be hard.

I guess I'd rather be a stranger in my own land, than a stranger in someone elses land.

Here my resistance to Bush is authentic - I'm an authentic American progressive. It's real, albeit disheartening. In Canada? I think I'd just be an expat American.... more American than anything. else.

Hey, whaddya know, sanity does exist.

In response to Steve: While I haven't had any serious heatlh problems since living in Australia (knock wood) I have gone to the doctor for routine stuff. And here's how that works -- I walk into a local medical clinic (of which their are many in my neighbourhood) present my Medicare card, sit and wait -- longer than I would in the US, 30 minutes to an hour depending on time of day. I see the doctor. I leave. No cash out of pocket, no forms. I suppose I can't demand whatever sorts of tests all the time -- ie I can get a pap smear every other year unless there's trouble.

The Liberal Party (that's the conservatives) are pushing for greater privatization of medical services (there is private insurance) but Labor is doing a pretty good job protecting Medicare (I think 70+% of doctors bulk bill and they're pushing to get it back to 85% (see www.alp.org.au).

One of the best things, for me, about having Medicare is it has freed me to do whatever I like for a living without worrying about losing insurance -- I've been working as a freelance PR person for Major League Baseball while flirting with doing some travel writting. Without Medicare I'd have had to settle into some crappy corporate job.

As for the Australian economy -- just fine, thanks. While jobs have been disappearing left and right in the US we've been chugging right along. As one measure, when I moved here in 2000 the exchange rate was US$0.50 to the A$1 -- it's now about US$0.70 and has been as high as US$0.79. And as far as I can tell there are, generally, plenty of jobs going around -- www.seek.com.au.

Just a bit of a side note:

The poll numbers aren't all that bad. In fact, a 9/7 battleground poll found, and I quote, "If all the states--even those within the margin of error--were to go to the current leading candidates, adn the other 34 states go as they did in the 2000 election, Mr. Bush would get 231 electoral votes and Mr. Kerry would get 307."

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-battleground04.html

So let's not be that concerned with crappy polls.

No one's stopping you. No one will even notice. My guess is you'll stay and continue to whine.

RE: Tax measure for Mult co. Just let it go. It was the dumbest thing I have ever seen. If you can not attach a new tax to payroll all you are doing is creating new anti-tax crusaders. For every dollar you bring in you will lose three by the next four tax measures going down. Plus the idea of writing a separate tax to the county probably decreases property values and investment. Both sides should welcome the defeat of this retarded tax.

RE: Australia The improvement of the Australian dollar is for the most part only in comparison to the declining dollar, thanks to the Euro and the manipulations of our Moron-in-chief.

Also regarding medical treatment in the AU. My aunt who lives in Canberra had to fly back to the States for medical treatment because the two year community college graduates Australia calls "Doctors" told her that the swelling in her throat did not warrent any tests and refused to go any further with it. (she had thyroid cancer) Australia is a beautiful place with nice people, but the land of milk and honey it is not.

RE Bush polls.. do not give up at the first sign of trouble. First keep in mind Kerry does better when he is down, he always has. Secondly these recent polls are suspect according to many pollsters. They think they are over-sampleing republicans. The recent corrections seem to bear this out..

You guys aren't going anywhere. I think I remember Alec Baldwin swearing to leave four years ago. He's still here because this is where he makes his money.

Same with all you liberals. Where are you gonna go find a bunch of civil service or nonprofit jobs outside the US?

The good news (for you) is that even if Bush is re-elected, the government sector will continue to grow (Bush's smaller government talk is mostly just that) giving you folks the life support you'll need to last through at least one more presidential election.

Come now chicken little, please tell me that your life is any different now than it was four years ago. Does it really matter who is president? Life goes on...