That's my point, Allehseya: a giant cross-section of the animal kingdom is 'misrepresented' in that manner by its use as sports mascots - my ethnicity (as I pointed out, had you read thoroughly) among them. Native Americans are not, nor have they ever been, alone in this regard.

(However, in the case of actual ducks and beavers, even if they could talk, it's a stretch to think they'd watch TV. We're talking brains the size of walnuts. Me, I'm waiting for the massive aquatic protest outside Miami on behalf of real dolphins, cause that might make sense, but dolphins would probably be more likely to picket SeaWorld.)

I'm not going to bore anyone with the hardships of famine, violence, injustice, indentured servitude, et. al, that my ethnic group was subjected to back in the day, but it's there for anyone to read about/remember. But I'm glad you caught the sarcasm, because inherent in it is my opinion that everybody so misrepresented has a right to complain, not just Native Americans, and force a change.

For the NCAA, in this instance, to issue a blanket condemnation and punishment only on behalf of Native Americans is missing the point, insofar as there is no monopoly on ethnic tragedy or on being pissed off to any degree because some school likens you and all your ancestors to a caricature. And from a Democratic point of view, I fear that the NCAA may be helping to widen a rift between schools with 'safe' mascots and those whose mascot may offend someone, somewhere.

Furthermore, the NCAA's previous plan, which was to work together with schools to change their mascots (usually to something in the animal kingdom), and deal with those that didn't cooperate on an individual basis, was more constructive. Again, as I pointed out, the NCAA, along with concerned students, made mutually beneficial changes to at least two other schools that I know of, and could have done more.

Illinois, for its part, complied with the NCAA by wearing the shirts that said Illinois, not "Fighting Illini," and leaving the mascot in the Chief Illinawek suit at home. I imagine they would have listened and cooperated with the NCAA had it been as before, and the NCAA, for its part, may have been more reasonable with regard to the heavy hand they put down not only on them, but on the other 17 schools.

But at its base, what I'm hearing from both of you is that the Native American objection is the ONLY valid one among the human mascot groups, as if no one else suffered, and that seems as insensitive to me as what you're accusing me of.

I hope not: at least the Chief Osceola mascot looks dignified compared to the bearded guy in tights in South Bend.

john, what other ethnic group is so widely used as a sports mascot? the irish/celtic, and then i'm at a lost of think of any other group. this is a very narrow issue affecting a narrow group but easily identifiable group of people.

i know you're being sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek, but there are just no other comparisons. the Pilots and the Redskins are a huge world of insensitivity apart. the Dolphins and the Chiefs: how can you begin to equate these? whatever various people think about "using" animals, occupations, or mechnical objects (Pistons), to take the most superficial, and frequently demeaning, characteristic of a people (actually, many peoples if we're talking about native americans), is beyond the pale. there is not excuse for these mascots.

making these kinds of difficult changes is never easy to do. the ncaa might have decided that the only way they would get the job done is the one you see as heavy-handed. i see it as long overdue. the teams would not act, congress would not act, leagues would not act, and native americans were supposed to just accept this nasty state of affairs. good for the ncaa. for once, it looks like they did the right thing.

T.A. asks an interesting question ("what other ethnic group is so widely used"), so I looked it up that trusty net source--wikipedia. I also found another compilation site. There are non-native racial names galore:

Albion College Britons Alfred University Saxons Carlow University Celtics Earlham Hustlin' Quakers Hofstra Flying Dutchmen Holy Cross Crusaders Illinois College Blue Boys (I believe it's a Presbyterian reference) Iona Gaels Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns Mount St. Mary's College Athenians New Mexico Tech Pygmies North Texas Mean Green (after--weirdly enough, Mean Joe Green, and alum) Notre Dame Fighting Irish Ohio Wesleyan Battlin' Bishops Oklahoma Cowboys Pacific Lutheran Lutes (a play on Lutheran) Penn Quakers Rutgers Scarlet Knights St. Thomas Celts Union College Dutchmen Virginia Cavaliers UNLV Runnin' Rebels (an apparent Dixie reference) Wooster Fighting Scots

There are also ten schools named "Scots" (and one "Scotties") five "Highlanders" (another Scottish reference?), 16 "Spartans" and 15 "Trojans," 18 Vikings, three "Marauders," three "Quakers," two "Norse," and 20 "Saints" I skipped names referring to state identities like Hoosiers, Sooners, and Tar Heels, but these are nonetheless references to classes of humans.

It was instructive: it looks to me like our desire to honor heritage is quite common. I get why the NCAA thinks "Savages" (Southeastern Oklahoma State University) is racist. But how does it justify excluding Florida State's desire to honor heritage, but not the University I do research at (Portland State University Vikings)?

Interesting...

But how does it justify excluding Florida State's desire to honor heritage, but not the University I do research at (Portland State University Vikings)?

Jeff, Do you know any vikings who are complaining about their name being used in a sports mascot? From a complaint to the University of Illinois Board of Trsutees:

"We just say we're not honored by it. That should carry some weight. The Native community is saying we know you're trying to flatter us, but we're not flattered, so stop."

Matthew Beaudet, president of the Illinois Native American Bar Association, as quoted by Paul Riede in School Administrator (September 2001).

Jeff, Do you know any vikings who are complaining about their name being used in a sports mascot?

No, and that was perhaps not the best analogue. But my point wasn't to justify racist symbols--it was to point out that just because a university has adopted a Native American nickname doesn't necessarily make it racist. FSU has long worked closely with the Seminole tribe. The NCAA's blanket policy, targeting all Native-American nicknames, seems an unwarranted reaction to the obviously racist nicks of a number of colleges.

I'm also not willing to gloss over the fact that so many colleges do use national identity for nicknames. Why is it so hard to imagine that a university honors Scots but not Seminoles? Is it because there's an assumption that Seminoles aren't associated with the school, don't use and benefit from the university in the same way the "Scots" do? I actually find that offensive.

(Parenthetically, I will add that when I dug around to find nicknames for other schools, I expected my own assumptions to be confirmed--that they were almost exclusively Native American and that these were generally offensive. I was surprised at what else was out there.)

Bullshit, Peter.

That's a pretty convenient epithet, "racist," to throw around whenever anybody even brings up the comparative treatment of ethnic groups by mascots, I guess. I stand by my posts, and my statements, and challenge Mr. Bray to refute them with facts, not conjectures.

I've seen... one chant (the infamous 'Tomahawk Chop'), repeated ad nauseum, at Florida State sporting events. Before the game, a person dressed like a non-cartoon version of Chief Osceola rides his horse onto the field and thrusts a burning spear into the center (this is football only, as it would be problematic at a basketball or baseball game).

How that's a scalping, a spear chuck, or a war dance, is probably one for the most cynical interpretation, but if it was at all demeaning, the Seminole Tribe of Florida would have the right to change or remove it. As such, the current Chief of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, Chief David Osceola, has said he'll testify that the tribe is not offended by Florida State's mascotization.

As for comparing Native American treatment to "leprechaun jokes," I did no such thing. And I'll not dignify Bray's horseshit comment any further.

But while we're at it, how about Oregon high schools that use Native American mascots? Are they off the hook?

Why is it so hard to imagine that a university honors Scots but not Seminoles?

Because "Scots" are not telling you that they are offended -- just as "Vikings" are not telling you that they are offended.

I'm actually a little surprised that you don't see how an argument that says "We may have destroyed your culture 150 short years ago, but now -- irrespective of your protests -- we intend to do honor to your culture by making you our mascot" might be regarded as patronizing and offensive.

Holding aside John's dehumanizing comparison of indian tribes to other mascots that included pets and other animals -- and the fact that the reified objectification involved in these mascots invites such comparisons, the whole argument in favor of not changing these mascots over the objections of the tribes is non-trivially rooted in the same premise that permitted white settlers to commit genocide against the indians 150 years ago. Namely, that what indians think, feel, or say doesn't really matter and "we're just doing what's best for them by doing "honor to the tribe" whenever a halfback makes an "important play" in a "big game"".

The Florida State example is probably the only case in the entire country where one can make a reasonable case for the continued use of the monicker, but even in there, several Seminole tribes, including 14,000 members in Oklahoma -- whose ancestors were forcibly removed from their lands and force-marched on the trail of tears -- oppose the continued use of the monicker.

Again, "We just say we're not honored by it. That should carry some weight. The Native community is saying we know you're trying to flatter us, but we're not flattered, so stop."

John's point that we should evaluate the potential racism of Native mascots - and not blindly eliminate all references to Native Americans in our college athletics - seems to make sense to me.

For example, I doubt seriously that anyone considers this one a racist mascot: The Fighting Indians.... of Haskell Indian Nations University.

So, once we acknowledge that Redsk*ins is a racist mascot and Haskell Fighting Indians is not, then we're in the business of evaluating mascots.

And thus my question, what makes a mascot racist?

Glad to see that even progressives can disagree without devolving into name-calling. :)

I take it that afs' comment that "YOU KNOW THAT FACT AND DO NOT CARE" (that the "Tomahawk Chop" is derogatory) was directed at me. Where to start?

First, not topical: the NCAA doesn't control the actions of fans at sporting events to that extent, and weren't doing so with the issuance of this edict. In fact, the NCAA under its new diversity/inclusion VP, has completely abrogated its former good work to remove the most offensive mascots on an individual basis by working with universities on a mutually-beneficial solution.

Like Kari said, (individual) evaluation is necessary here, and the NCAA was DOING THAT before they wrote a list of 18 schools and then QUIT.

Second, if the Chop was so offensive to the Seminole Tribe of Florida, they could easily object in a manner that we'd all hear about, and I'm sure the citation would be widely available by next morning. Hey, I hate the Tomahawk Chop, too; I think it's probably offensive, but unless anyone can speak on behalf of a majority of the Tribe, I don't know, and you don't know either.

Florida State's on that list of 18 - and they shouldn't be. They got sufficient formal permission. If a university in Oklahoma wishes to call themselves the Seminoles, that should then be up to them and the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma, although the Seminoles of Florida would argue that the Seminole name refers to indigenous people that later moved to Florida and survived the First, Second and Third Seminole Wars, unconquered.

Third, I'm all too familiar with the slippery slope afs describes, and I've seen it, as a Timbers fan, to a nastier degree than him. I don't see how you're going to stop it without a quantum leap in educational level for the entire population.

But I'm worried about a different one - the slippery slope of what's acceptable and what isn't. It's easy to associate a negative connotation with just about any team name: as representative of the peoples and other members of Earth's animal kingdom as is the entire diaspora of mascots, it's bound to get ugly just about anywhere you look.

Finally, the Tomahawk Chop and other symbols, whether they're in or out, does jack. freaking. squat. to make life better or worse for Native Americans. Settling Cobell vs. Norton in favor of the tribes would be a much larger step.

John, My first reaction was sympathetic--surely, I thought, there should be a way to use American Indian mascots in a way that honors the American Indian tradition.

Then I did a bit of internet research. Just a tiny bit.

American Indian mascots are used at a frequency that overwhelms any other ethnic group (see here: http://www.aistm.org/fr.faqs.htm), and the same groups that advocate for removing American Indian mascots have no problem with also asking Notre Dame to quit portraying Irish as humorous leprachauns.

There are virtually no American Indian groups that support the use of these mascots. The few examples that you can cite (e.g. Seminoles) is completely overwhelmed by the number who oppose such usage.

There are literally innumerable alternative names such as Wolverines, Storm, Lightning, Fury, Panthers, the list goes ON and ON.

I think you raise one and only one good point here: why did the NCAA choose to crack down now when (as you claim) progress was being made in a cooperative way.

I don't know the answer to this, but I do know that the NCAA is not an organization that I'd call particularly socially progressive or fast moving. A school like FSU carries extremely heavy weight in the NCAA. So if the organization has chosen to make this move, my first inference would have to be that schools are balking or refusing, and that the weight of the historical evidence has become too great for the organization to wait any longer.

It's time to give it up. Change the names. It didn't hurt Stanford. It didn't hurt St. Johns. It won't kill FSU or the Washington football or Atlanta and Cleveland baseball teams.

Two points. First, Salvador, you wrote: "Because "Scots" are not telling you that they are offended -- just as "Vikings" are not telling you that they are offended."

Ah, but the Seminoles are not telling us they're offended--in fact, they've gone out of their way to tell us they aren't offended. You wish to reduce it to an either/or, but it ain't that simple. I acknowledge (and have acknowledged, as does John Dunagan in the initial post) that most Native American names are throwbacks to a racist past. But you refuse to acknowledge that some may not be.

The second point is that the NCAA's rule seems like a poor way to accomplish the end--an end which is, despite the bile, not much disputed on this page. As a follower of NCAA sports, I've been pretty offended by the institution's autocratic and bizarre behavior for years.

(As one example, my grad school alma mater was disciplined after a local retailer sold the team shoes at a discount. The NCAA wants to kept graft out of sports, and thankfully so, but that was idiocy. Further, their efforts to keep the games "pure" lead student-athletes into penury--damaging their eductions--all the while the schools play roulette with millions earned off their backs.)

But I think the far bigger issue is about race. Why is it that liberals devolve into name-calling the second someone sincerely tries to broach the topic? As far as I can tell, we're all on the same team. The stakes couldn't be higher. Surely name-calling doesn't help us come to broader agreement about race in America.

Then take Florida State to court if you have a problem with Florida State. Never mind for a moment that they've made a good faith effort to promote an icon to the mutual benefit of the Seminole Tribe of Florida and themselves, but good luck telling both those entities that you know what's best for them.

Even better would be the forcing of Kari's example, Haskell Indian Nations University, to drop "Fighting Indians."

This isn't simple. It's not categorical, either. But it could make the NCAA look really, really foolish.

Looks like my comment got lost in the shuffle. Put another way, does anyone here support the idea that the NCAA should bar a traditionally Native American university - Haskell Indian Nations University - from using "Fighting Indians" as their mascot?

How do we draw a bright-line rule that allows "Fighting Indians" and bars anything akin to Redsk*ns and Chief Wahoo?

Ron, that was self-editing. Of course Chris Rock said the word, and from the evidence inherent in your post, you understood, too, exactly what word he said. I don't choose to write it out, even as a quote. And since I believe I'm speaking among intelligent people, they can fill it in, too. This isn't as much about Mr. Rock's comparison as it is about the larger issue.

I did make one mistake, though: inasmuch as I believe Redsk*ns is an racial slur of Native Americans, I should not have said that word in its entirety, either. I should go back and edit it, or in the very least, say it like Kari did, with the asterisk.

Sorry to double up, but here's the list of 18. And I will say, that for the most part, with the exceptions noted above, the NCAA got it right:

Alcorn State University (Braves) Central Michigan University (Chippewas) Catawba College (Indians) Florida State University (Seminoles) Midwestern State University (Indians) University of Utah (Utes) Indiana University-Pennsylvania (Indians) Carthage College (Redmen) Bradley University (Braves) Arkansas State University (Indians) Chowan College (Braves) University of Illinois-Champaign (Illini) University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians) McMurry University (Indians) Mississippi College (Choctaws) Newberry College (Indians) University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux) Southeastern Oklahoma State University (Savages)

I'll put it this way: as much as I think it is possible for a university to have a mascot (or icon, if you will) in a way that is respectful of the people you're trying to represent, provided you have the permission of the people represented, using "Indians" as your nickname is nearly impossible to do without being racist, given that it's a word used to describe the entire population of North America's indigenous people. "Redmen" is already a name that got changed, when Miami of Ohio changed it to "Redhawks."

Other tribe-specific nicknames would also not pass the sniff test. The "Illini" doesn't work, because the descendants of the real Chief Illinawek have objected. It also doesn't help that the white kid UIUC dresses up in that large headdress and buckskin (and it's always a white kid) to represent Chief Illinawek acts completely undignified, in an effort to stir up the faithful at games.

Likewise, "Utes" are the tribe that white men massacred in Utah (and I'll take Jon Krakauer's word on that, in his book, "Under the Kingdom of Heaven") to carve out a place for the LDS Church, and the "Fighting Sioux" likewise for Dakotans, so absent specific permission from an authoritative body of each tribe (like the Seminoles have their Tribal Council), those wouldn't work, either.

My cousin was an All-American lacrosse athlete at William and Mary - "the Tribe." He used to send me t-shirts that said "Tribe Lacrosse." The NCAA's permitting them to continue a self-study about the use of that mascot.

On edit, that was St. John's who changed from "Redmen". Miami University of Ohio were the "Redskins," then "Redhawks."

This naming of American sports teams after vanquished/extinct nostalgic icons, is part of a larger phenomenon of naming places, stadiums, corporations, real estate developments, cars, guns, etcetera following a similar impulse.

The names of animals, objects, and peoples of perceived power or courage are chosen for competitive organizations. Sometimes there are additional obvious tie-ins like Notre Dame having an Irish/Catholic history or the Minnesota Vikings relating to the scandinavians who settled the upper midwest.

That said, overtly offensive naming is pretty easy to identify as evidenced by the previous posts, and the NCAA seems to be going in the right direction even though they're being overly cautious, so some of their targets look a little bit ridiculous.

I say we should demand that Lake Oswego (which surrounds an old iron mine hand dug by chinese immigrants, but is named after a northern New York native American band)should be forced to change its name to something less offensive and better descriptive. How about Lake McMansion Dwelling SUV Driving Latte Sipping Upscale Professionals.

While we're at it, can we get rid of Charbonneau? The guy was a poligamist and a drunk (not that there's anything wrong with that).

More info:

NCAA Bans 18 Colleges From Holding Postseason Events Unless They Discard American Indian Nicknames and Mascots

By BRAD WOLVERTON

Eighteen colleges whose nicknames or mascots refer to American Indians will not be permitted to hold National Collegiate Athletic Association tournament events unless they change their nicknames or wipe out images of American Indians in their facilities, NCAA officials said today.

Colleges on the list -- which include Florida State University, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and the University of North Dakota, all of which have refused to change their American Indian team names -- also will be barred from NCAA-sponsored postseason tournaments unless they remove what NCAA officials have deemed to be "abusive or hostile" references to American Indians from their uniforms.

The NCAA's decision, which was announced at a news conference this morning, was reached by its Executive Committee on Thursday, following a four-year study of the issue. Colleges that wish to appeal the new policy must do so to the committee by February, when the uniform restriction takes effect.

Institutions whose facilities have American Indian images and are scheduled to play host to NCAA postseason events must cover up those images starting next February. By 2008, institutions must get rid of the images if they want to hold postseason events.

The new rules do not prevent colleges from using American Indian nicknames during regular-season play and will affect only the few institutions with facilities large enough to handle NCAA postseason events. Those disparities led some critics of racial stereotyping in sports to criticize the NCAA for failing to banish inappropriate images of American Indians from the field of play.

"The NCAA has missed an enormous opportunity to correct a longstanding wrong in intercollegiate athletics," said Stephen J. Kaufman, a professor of cell and structural biology at the University of Illinois, in an interview today. "The NCAA is sending a very clear message that they are indifferent to Native Americans and to their own nondiscrimination and diversity policies."

But T.K. Wetherell, president of Florida State University, whose "Seminoles" nickname has received support from the Seminole Tribe of Florida, took the NCAA to task for considering any change.

In a statement released after the NCAA's decision, Mr. Wetherell said the university was "stunned at the complete lack of appreciation for cultural diversity" shown by the association.

"That the NCAA would now label our close bond with the Seminole Tribe of Florida as culturally hostile and abusive is both outrageous and insulting," the statement said.

Other college officials lamented the high cost of covering up American Indian images in their athletics facilities. At the University of North Dakota's $100-million Ralph Engelstad Arena, the scheduled site of an NCAA postseason hockey competition next spring, hundreds of images of its "Fighting Sioux" logo are emblazoned into marble, rock, and the center of the gymnasium floor.

Under the new rule, the university must get rid of those images, said Phil Harmeson, senior associate to the president. The cost, he said, could run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The NCAA's new policy affects the following colleges and universities:

* Alcorn State University (Braves)
* Arkansas State University, main campus (Indians)
* Bradley University (Braves)
* Carthage College (Redmen)
* Catawba College (Indians)
* Central Michigan University (Chippewas)
* Chowan College (Braves)
* Florida State University (Seminoles)
* Indiana University of Pennsylvania (Indians)
* McMurry University (Indians)
* Midwestern State University (Indians)
* Mississippi College (Choctaws)
* Newberry College (Indians)
* Southeastern Oklahoma State University (Savages)
* University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (Illini)
* University of Louisiana at Monroe (Indians)
* University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux)
* University of Utah (Utes)

Of course, I've always much appreciated that Gregg Easterbrook (of NFL.com and the Brookings Institution) objects both to Redsk*ns as well as the fact that they say they're in Washington - which they are not. So, he calls 'em "Potomac Drainage Basin Indigenous Persons"

I think "R*dsk*ns" has no polite usage (except for potatoes), though surely neither the team nor its fans intend offense. But I also don't like the "W*sh*ngt*n" part, since this club rehearses in Virginia and performs in Maryland.