"We just marched in; we should just come home!"

I'd like to hear that from Obama.

Vote Paul!

I plan to vote for Dr. Ron Paul, MD, OB/GYN, USAF (Ret.), thank you.

If you want to support the troops, elect one of their own who actually makes sense. Judging by their donation levels, they sure are!

Ron Paul for me please.

@ Steven

No chance of winning?

Hold on tight brother, we're taken Ron Paul all the way...

Ron Paul is the finest statesman of our generation. I actually believe he will end up winning the Republican nomination along with the general election.

Thanks for supporting someone who would stomp on my right to choose.

Thanks for placing your inability or unwillingness to use effective birth control higher than the human rights of Iraqi civilians and the lives of American soldiers.

And just to be clear, RP would send the issue of abortion back to the states -- presuming he ever even got the opportunity. If you think that'll result in your right to pay somebody to suck a fetus out of your womb getting stomped on, then you obviously have little faith in the Democrats running this state, or the People of Oregon themselves.

Alex, have you ever been a foster parent, an adoptive parent, a volunteer with kids? Rhetoric like yours solves nothing. How many of the people who oppose abortion also oppose Measure 50 because they don't want to raise tobacco taxes?

If you really think that "conception to birth should be regulated, but after birth government should have no role in the welfare of kids" by all means say so. There has been documentation for years that people who support the welfare of kids are not the ones who are so harshly anti-abortion. Under which presidents has the abortion rate gone down and the adoption rate gone up--Clinton and other Democrats, or Republicans like both Bushes?

And about that birth control crack---rape and incest victims seem to be ignored in this debate.

While an uphill task, I think Ron Paul has a real possibility to pull an 11th hour victory.

Remember Kerry went from 9% to frontrunner within a month JUST because dems thought he had "winnability" Benito Giuliani, Romney and McCain certainly certainly can't win... and the monster that was Fred Thompson is slowing down...

I'm a military officer and my vote is for Ron Paul. He understands more years of American intervention in the Middle East will yield more anti-American blow-back and ultimately more unbridled terror. His reason for objecting to this war is founded on the Constitution and a strong understanding of how our foreign policy spiraled out of control. YouTube has a 13-minute video called "Educating Rudy Press Conference" where Ron Paul and Michael Scheuer (former chief of CIA Bin Laden Unit) explain to the press the foundation for his position on the war including scholarly references, the 9-11 Report and the Constitution. His is not strictly an emotional plea, it's based on a historical understanding of Middle East foreign policy that all officers are trained on and also understand.

All the other GOP candidates will tell you we have to win to maintain our honor. Honor doesn't mean sticking with the original plan at all costs. Honor for me is giving my all to achieve the national objective, to fearlessly execute the mission appointed to me. Perhaps we've fought long enough to gain new understanding, new historical perspective and a new way forward both politically and technologically. What about intellectual honor? Whatever is best for US National Security and the security of our children is what we should do. Non-interventionism is an extremely compelling alternative to the current course of action.

Ron Paul isn't going to win the primary. His views are so far outside the mainstream view of the American public and the average Republican that as soon as he starts speaking on abortion, the so-called "North American Union," taxation, the United Nations, international relations, Global Warming, or any other subject except maybe illegal wiretapping, his candidacy will be finished.

His main supporters are single issue voters or closeted Libertarians.

You know it may seem quaint to cynics like myself, but military personnel see honor as one of the highest values, and they have seen precious little of it in the current leaders and their jackals in the media.

"[M]ilitary personnel see honor as one of the highest values,..." is a categorical statement that doesn't stand scrutiny. To the contrary, the following phrase in the quote above - "and they have seen precious little of it in the current leaders" - shoots it down if by "leaders" you mean the generals. Obviously, Generals Shinseki and Taguba had strong senses of honor, but anyone who has been in the military will be suspicious of those who learned from the treatments given to these superb officers and refrained from speaking similar truths to power and continued to serve.

There are military personnel who see honor as one of the highest values, but unfortunately that may apply only to a minority if stories out of Iraq are true. Some time ago a colonel from West Point for whom apparently honor was one of the highest virtues was so disturbed by dishonorable conduct that he found among military personnel in Iraq that he committed suicide. If he wasn't murdered to keep him from spilling the beans. Another report that came out a few months ago reported that young officers with a high sense of honor are quitting the military because of an absence of honor among fellow officers and those in superior ranks. Hopefully, there remain enough officers with a sense of honor who take their oaths to defend the Constitution seriously to prevent a military coup that some observers consider a possibility.

Kristin, I think what is more important is your responsibility to abstain or use a contraceptive. I feel it is very irresponsible for people to go around copulating with no regard to the results of their actions. Then they want to run out and wash it away with abortion. How do you feel about personal responsibility vs. abortion as an answer for irresponsibility?

McCain was a Navy pilot.

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Pat, I never claimed to be a libertarian...and I offered a different point of view on abortion. Your last comment is just silly, and amounts to wasted energy.

I was waiting for you to bring up the whole incest/abortion thingy... I am not an absolutist on this Kristin, however, your comments seem to indicate an absolutist approach to PRO Choice. I feel people should abstain or use contraceptive as an act of responsibility and morality as opposed to relying on abortion as some quick fix for irresponsible behavior. And I do not have any kids.

Kristin, it means that although I do not believe in abortion as a remedy for irresponsible behaviour, it may be a reasonable solution for acts of incest/rape or the rare faulty contraceptive. Outside of that I am curious for the protest? Seems as though it would be much easier to abstain or use a contraceptive, it would also save time and money, no?

Kristin, its an opinion not a judgement and anyone is entitled to it. I am a firm believer in personal responsibilty, speaking of good ideas. From your comments it doesnt appear we agree on personal responsibility.

Ok back to the post...Stay away from Obama, Hillary, Edwards, Gooliani, Romney, Thompson and McCain as they all belong to the CFR.

libertarians who have the gall to lecture fellow citizens about womb management.....display an appalling lack of understanding for your own dogma.

Actually, libertarians are unsurprisingly split on the issue of "womb management" and the rights of the unborn. Some think the woman's right to own and control her body outweighs the right of a baby to be born. Others believe protecting life is of preeminent importance -- one of the few basic and legitimate functions of the state -- and therefore at some point trumps the temporary inconvenience of an unwanted pregnancy.

Personally, I side (somewhat sadly and reluctantly) with the woman's right to choose abortion, as I abhor the idea of conservative politicians or progressive bureaucrats or anyone else presuming to dictate what I can and can't do with my own body and property. No libertarian I've ever met would advocate that a woman impregnated in a criminal act of force, violence or aggression upon her person should be legally bound to carry that child. Likewise, my guess is that the vast majority of self-described libertarians would also support leaving the decision as to whether or not a child should be carried to term to the mother and her doctor if an issue of endangerment to the mother's health arises. And I'd also venture that as an obstetrics/gynecology specialist, Dr. Paul has a better grasp of those issues than any of the candidates in the field, Republican and Democrat alike.

...it's not anyone's right to decide or judge except the woman who is pregnant. Everybody else, particularly men who will never face such a horrible choice, step aside...

I don't disagree with you but doesn't the opinion of a man who has delivered many babies have some merit. Not to imply that only men are doctors, just wanted to mention that the "weirdo" from Texas is.

Great initial post with a unique writer's voice. As for what follows? Not so much.

Can I just mention both Hitler and Nazi's, invoke Godwin's Law and ask for a do over?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

If you promise to max it out Kari, I will post a few more comments. Seems as though people resort to name calling when they feel marginalized. Cha Ching...hope thats the sound of your fiat currency paying the man...

"Mike" did you fall down one of those innertube vortexes and think that you were posting at nwrepublican.blogspot.com or perhaps www.rescue-us.org ? Just wonderin' And if you think that your rhetoric is the way to win additional fanboys (and girls) to your cause...you are deeply mistaken.

After this I read Ron Paul and think yeech.

I didn't realize this was such a tight nit community thing going on here. I didn't mean to come off like I was trying to pour the Paul Cool-Aide down you're throat. I was just curious about Kristin's concern. Is that the biggest thing holding you back against his policies? Anyway it's not that specific to the article and I apologize for stepping on toes.

Happy Bunch of people here I see...You can stay here and bathe in your magical pourage of pity for all I care. You will get what you vote for. But, don't dare take the shades off your fellow Lemmings before you drop off the cliff and please, whatever you do, don't whisper too loudly, don't want any of you waking up to soon. Never fear, Hillary and Osama will be sure to give you more of what you love so much about the current admin.

Oh what a wonderful feeling...

"and Osama"

Oh, where to go with that "typo"? I won't. But thanks for confirming your integrity. If you represent the kind of people gunning for Ron Paul I think I need to go take a shower.

I would never consider injecting my personal standards on others, including women and their right to choose, but in fairness to Ron Paul he set an example of living up to his oath to defend the Constitution while others who betrayed their oaths or appear likely to do the same are in the top tiers of presidential contenders. If one of them is elected president and tries to increase presidential powers by shredding more of the Constitution then women may lose more than their right to choose and all of us will likely lose many of our rights. I seem to recall that Hillary and others have already modified their positions on abortion to be less positive.

That one was all for you Hawthorne...enjoy your shower!

It's hard to wash a crappy sense of humor, racism and mysogyny off all in one go, but I'll do my best.

Thats quite a branding your speaking of. I don't think you can wash that off buddy. But do not worry, with Billary and "Osama" there should be plenty of federal funding available to remove it. I wouldn't tell anyone else your dirty little secrets though.

If you are sitting on the fence or undecided but thinking about voting for Ron Paul make sure you register as a republican. The GOP is pulling a fast one in many states and closing the primaries to registered republicans allowed to vote ONLY. These states used to allow all or independents/non-declareds to vote in primaries but won't be this time around. This effectively cuts down Dr. Paul's campaigning time to less than 2 weeks in MANY important states. Read more here:

http://www.gambling911.com/Ron-Paul-New-Votin...

This is an outrage!

That url didn't come out completely but if you visit www.gambling911.com you can find it

Point of fact: John McCain was Navy, not Air Force. Ron Paul was in the Air Force, however.

Ha Progressives? Libertarians were against the war on drugs since it started, what are liberals about? Preoccupied with seat belt laws? LOL! Yeah, real progressive! Not letting people decide for themselves, making choices for them! Liberals are only good for two things: raising taxes and expanding government, they are a miserable fsilure, liberal economics is HORRIBLE! Ever hear of President Johnson's "Great Society" the lieral reforms that ended up making everything worse, not to mention it created run away inflation leading into the 1970's.

Dr. Paul believes in leaving abortion to the states, do you have a problem with the CONSTITUTION? If you want abortion to be legal, create a Constitutional amendment, otherwise, shut up. Why do you think we're the UNITED STATES of America? State's have their right to represent their constituency on this matter.

I'm personally pro-choice, but at least I know the FUCKING LAW :)

Ron Paul 2008!

I don't understand all these RonPaul trolls. I think there's been alot of libertarian (republican light) and republican trolls on this web site of late, dumbing down our discussions.

One additional thought - I suggest we ignore all these posts by the republican & libertarian (republican light) trolls on our blog. They'll go away once they see noone responds to them.

I had wish the abortion issue did not come up. It is always a conversation killer and emotions get heated. My thing with Obama is that he presents well but wants to keep troops in iraq, continue occupation of our military in the middle east. He is not afraid of attacking other countries like pakistan. Mike Gravel called Hillary out on voting for iran sanctions and Obama for ducking out on the vote. Iran sanctions are just the stepping stones toward war as were the Iraq sanctions.

The other thing that scares me about any democrat is all the money for big programs. Ron Paul has explained to fund big programs you need to tax or increase debt and inflation through printing more money by the Fed reserve. Inflation is a tax on the poor and middle class whose dollar in their pockets are worth less. The US dollar is now worth less than a canadian dollar. Entitlements may sound nice but they make the poor and middle class poorer through inflation. Ron Paul- no income tax, No federal reserve. Let the people keep their money to take care of their lives.

Kari, Given my occupation and (hopefully) added insight to the author's thesis, I think my comments are more pertinent than your abortion stance.

i'd rather have Rudy or Mitt -- i swear to god i would.

And guess what, T.A.: The neocon supporters of Rudy and Mitt would no doubt prefer Hillary Clinton to Ron Paul. Proof yet again that war-lovers and liberty-loathers tend to think alike regardless of superficial party affiliations.

Ha Progressives? Libertarians were against the war on drugs since it started, what are liberals about? Preoccupied with seat belt laws? LOL! Yeah, real progressive! Not letting people decide for themselves, making choices for them! Liberals are only good for two things: raising taxes and expanding government, they are a miserable fsilure, liberal economics is HORRIBLE! Ever hear of President Johnson's "Great Society" the lieral reforms that ended up making everything worse, not to mention it created run away inflation leading into the 1970's.

This simplistic nonsense demonstrates the absurdity of using labels - libertarian, liberal - to make a point. Conversely, using labels to make a point is usually a sign of simplistic nonsense. Another reason for people to think independently or, at least, think.

Firstly, Kristin, thanks for being virtually the lone wolf here for a while.

Secondly, it concerns me that this whole abortion debate centers around women's rights. Certainly, it is a huge part. Why else would the debate be be pro-choice vs. anti-abortion? Those two ideas are not polar opposites. One encompasses the other - the right to choose not to have an abortion (also the right to choose whether to use contraceptives and condoms, lest we forget our devout Catholic friends).

The part of the abortion debate that we pro-choicers seem to forget about is the right of a child. No matter when you believe that life begins (prenatal? postpartum?), that child's life is part of the equation. What about the 15 year-old whose school only ever taught abstinence because Bush is a wacko? She may not know her options when her creepy Senior boyfriend pressures her into sex. She isn't ready to have a child. She's not emotionally mature enough to love that child and devote her life to that child the way a mother would be who had planned her pregnancy.

And the incest and rape argument? Same deal - a woman who's been raped, whether by stranger, friend or family, certainly didn't have a choice about her pregnancy in the first place (and I for one don't practice birth control "just in case" - don't call me irresponsible). Who could ever expect her to give that child all the love it deserves when it was conceived of ill intention?

And don't tell me you're going to ban abortion except in those circumstances of rape and incest. What kind of person would you be if you forced every woman seeking an abortion to prove she'd gotten pregnant unwillingly? We already live in a world where it's her word against his, and sadly, people still try to accuse her of making it up.

So yes, Ron Paul fans (creepy that you're all fans and not just supporters, by the way), it is the only policy that keeps many of us from researching further just what Ron Paul is about. Because God put women on this earth so that human kind could procreate, but God also gave us the choice (cognitive thinking - we're the only animal that does it) to decide when and with whom. It's a damn big responsibility, and a decision that no woman will ever take lightly.

And Pat is reading the comments on this blog and probably thinking "wtf? I didn't mention abortion".

Back to the subject (again) of the Pat's entry---I find it very fascinating that 40% of DOD folks are giving to Dems and that so many are in favor of Obama...and I'm glad to see that. Thanks for the post, Pat!

Posted by: Kari Chisholm | Oct 2, 2007 9:01:43 PM Kristin! Stop poking the Ron Paul trolls. Just had to notice that all the Ron Paul supporters here were dudes. Thanks for supporting someone who would stomp on my right to choose. So nice of y'all.

I also $upport Planned Parenthood and NARAL as well as the Second Amendment and the rest of the Constitution.

None of these people are regular BlueOregon readers.

Didn't you mean to say "You people" ? {g}

I AM a regular Blue Oregon reader, I do support RP, and hope he does make it through to the general, as an RP-vs-Obama debate would have us listening to two candidates who will talk about substantive issues in a meaningful with true integrity.

Here's how the Ron Paul thing works: As soon as Google News pops up an alert with the keyword "Ron Paul", the RP crazies post it to their message boards, their blogs, their listservs and they all start flooding in.

Not how I got here. I got here by reading Blue Oregon, which I do regularly.

Damn, it's easier to get traffic by mentioning Ron Paul than it is to make brief mentions of unclothed celebrity ladies. (Trying desperately here to avoid being direct, so we don't get flooded with THAT traffic.)

RP supporters also support your right to mention unclothed celebrity men, as well as the First Amendment, which no other GOP candidate seems to wish to protect.

Yeah, I wish RP was pro-choice. It depresses me he isn't. But, at least he wishes to keep the federal government out of your bedroom and out of your womb, whereas the rest of the GOP seems on the verge of creating the Anti-Sex League and the Federal Fetus Police.