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Guest Columns
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6:06 p.m.
Aug 21, '08
LOL - nice work, Brendan. The irony is indeed impossible to miss for most everyone but the MSM it seems.
Aug 21, '08
I am a little stunned at the number of people, including Obama, who speak of Afghanistan as if it were the "good war." If Iraq ever settles down, then people will have a chance to focus more on what a mistaken quagmire the Afghanistan invasion is.
The Russians were there for about 10 years in the 1980's and finished with about double the number of troops NATO (mostly USA) has there now. And the Russians then just packed up and left: they couldn't win and couldn't afford it anymore.
Our real purpose there was not to fight terrorists, but to eliminate just one single terrorist: Osama. That should have been a task for a single tracker and maybe a marksman. A modern army, we already know, can't hold the country. Yet with less invested than the Russians, we expect to do better than them. What a colossal waste!
Aug 21, '08
The sad and widely ignored part of all this is that the U.S. maintains some 250,000 or more troops abroad not including those in Iraq and Afghanistan in over 100 countries and has about 700 bases of various size abroad.
That's a lot of money and potential for a lot of problems. And not a word from anyone to suggest we need to do otherwise.
TLG
Aug 22, '08
Brendan, Your'e obviously young so let me help you out.
We didn't take out Saddam in the 1st Gulf War because he signed agreements with the United Nations to be a good boy (even though he did rape, rob and pillage a Nation-Kuwait). Over the following decade he kept breaking his promises, resulting in the U.N. passing another dozen or so resolutions begging him to be a good boy, he just laughed, knowing the UN are wimps. Meanwhile, he is Shooting at our Planes, trying to Kill our soldiers, flying over his agreed to no-fly-for-him-zone (mad that we wiped out most of his planes anyhow), usually attacking anyone is a call to War (but not on our southern border). Meanwhile UN inspectors are getting the runaround. So OUR Congress (we are not usually wimps like the UN) passed a law saying if he coninues to defy the World's request, then use of force can happen. Democrats voted YES. We even gave him a lot of time after all this to comply. He said the streets will flow with your blood, to your generation that is the middlefinger. As our and many other Nations Troops were gathering there, he still had time to do what he said he would do, like if you don't do your Homework over and over. He had plenty of time to folow through with his own agreement and didn't and so we finally did what the World was scared to do and kicked him out. NOW over 30 Million human beings live FREE. But it will take time to adjust as it did for the Germans & Japanese after World War two. Hope this helps, I'm sure your Democrat Teacher forgot this stuff, on purpose.
Big difference from just all of a sudden invading Georgia.
12:30 a.m.
Aug 22, '08
Rickey, you're obviously a troll so we'll just ignore you.
(Geez, do we really need to be insulting people based on their age?)
Aug 22, '08
Rick, you're obviously an idiot so let me help you out. First, don't capitalize a word after an comma. Second, learn how to spell "you're".
Aug 22, '08
No diversity of thought allowed! Funny.
Did anyone ever notice, prior to 9/11 Clooney had a movie about how stupid Bush, Sr was for not going to get Sadaam (three kings). Now Clooney has films showing how stupid Bush, Jr. is going to get Sadaam (Syriana, etc.). Common theme = no matter what the G. Bush does does it's stupid, wrong, immoral, etc.
Brenden, There is a lot of history prior to capturing Sadaam that shows there is no equivalence between the the US action and Russia's action. I'd recommend starting with Bill Clinton's and Al Gore's speeches about Iraq. Regarding Georgia, I'd recommend starting with discussing the situation with Russian and Slavic immigrants. There are several recent immigrants who provide a great perspective on living under communism the US and it's actions abroad.
IMO it wasn't the action of invading Iraq, it was our approach once we were successful in removing Sadaam. That used to be the DNC's position as well.
Sincerely, Troll (Sorry, I had just had to capitalize a letter after a comma. Oops, I did it three times now).
Aug 22, '08
Here's some idea on what all this War machine is costing us http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/why-we-love-americas-outrageous/story.aspx?guid=%7B0D31C880-32CD-4BA1-8133-329EA57CB069%7D
And Mr. Hickey perhaps can explain why we invaded Iraq in the first place. Was it to put someone's King back on his gilded throne? Was that why we Americans spent our money?
TLG
Aug 22, '08
Did Russia go to the UN to seek approval to invade Georgia? Did Georgia violate 15 UN Security Council resolutions? Did Georgia kick out UN inspectors? Is Georgia killing/gassing ethnic groups?
Even if Iraq was a mistake - you can't directly compare the two.
TLG - We went to propagate JFK's dream - Democracy. If we went for oil where's the revneue? (with the Iraqi's) Russia invaded Georgia to secure the oligarch's oil and quell Democracy.
Where are the anti-war protester's that filled the streets of Portland in the run up to the Iraq War?
JFK, Truman, FDR. They sure don't make Democrats like they used too.
Aug 22, '08
Young Comrade, It brightens my day to see such young Amerikan stand up for Soviet Rule! Amerika is dying, you have bright future in our homeland.
~Tat
Aug 22, '08
Re Troll #whatever: "If we went for oil where's the revneue?"
What you and most republicrats won't acknowledge is that it is not the oil per se that US hegemonists desire, but CONTROL over the oil. This is not rocket science, so it should be understandable even for people who can't spell "revenue". We have encircled the last vestiges of fossil fuel deposits in the Middle East and central Asia with military bases; it is not to spread democracy and human rights.
The Russians, like their Soviet predecessors, are also hegemonists, but their concerns in the case of Georgia are far more legitimate than ours in Iraq.
Kennedy, your apparent hero, almost destroyed the world with his response to missiles in Cuba. Truman, another of your apparent heroes, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Japan. With Democrats like them, who needs Republicans?
Aug 22, '08
Harry said: "But their concerns in the case of Georgia are far more legitimate than ours in Iraq."
My grandmother is rolling in her grave at that statement. Having grown up on a communist country and living in the US, being a proud Democrat always said that Americans just don't understand how good they have it. She said that people who have lived under communist rule never complain about America.
That statement makes the dunce Bush look like Einstein. Stalin was correct in knowing a certain part of America can always be counted on to undermine his enemy. He appropriately called them 'useful idiots'.
What about FDR? He was instrumental in winning WWII, as was Truman.
My favorite T-shirt I saw on a vet said 'If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Vet.'
9:33 p.m.
Aug 22, '08
Hussein did comply. There were no WMD because he did. The inspectors did not want the U.S. to invade when it did. Our lying sack of manure president and his administration made a fanciful interpretation of a Security Council resolution to justify the invasion, but the vast majority of the Security Council opposed it. Bush could not even get NATO on board.
It was a plain and simple act of aggression, based on lies.
It set a precedent that the Russians now are using. Along with the precedent set by NATO intervention in Serbia pursued in a way that led to the independence of Kosova.
Russia didn't "suddenly attack Georgia." The current war started with an attack by Saakashvili, in which several hundred South Ossetian civilians were killed and thousands fled their homes that was an apparent miscalculation of what he could gain by a provocation that would draw in U.S. support. The Russian counter-invasion might be argued to be disproportionate (though the U.S. didn't object to that in the most recent Israeli invasion of Lebanon), and it certainly appears that the Russians gave cover to ethnic expulsions against Georgians in South Ossetia and to a lot of "militia" destruction, looting and pillaging in areas of Georgia they occupied. No clean hands here, but Saakashvili was the one who attacked, and though the U.S. supposedly told him not to, our government is rewarding him for doing so. (How his own people feel in a few months remains to be seen).
There is a history going back to the break-up of the Soviet Union involving complex hegemonistic games over South Ossetia and Abhkazia.
Aug 23, '08
According to Chris all countries are acting the same and blaming the others as examples. The only group that isn't consistent is the Anti-War crowd that protested en mass in Portland. They only protest Bush aggression. Apparently other countries and Clinton's aggression didn't warrant
Chris - you actually believe Russia's propoganda regarding Ossetian genocide, even since it's been disproved? Wow!
To equate the two you have to disregard years of UN actions spanning over Republican and two Democrat Administrations (Clinton's two.)
Based on Al Gore's speeches, Iraq stance, and the Dem's votes in Congress, I am convinced a President Gore would have taken the same action as Bush II. I know several Gore supporters who asserted the same in the run-up.
I am fully aware of the complex games Russia plays with provinces included in the former USSR. I have relatives who lived under such Communism. They all would take a bad Bush over a communist state any day. It pains them to see US progressives in their Dem party to equate the two since they fully understand by experience you can't. What's your experience - academic?
Bush's Liberty >>>>>>> Russian/China's Liberty
Aug 23, '08
Troll #2 said:
(1.) "That statement ['But their concerns in the case of Georgia are far more legitimate than ours in Iraq.'] makes the dunce Bush look like Einstein."
There are more than two possibilities, even for a dunce like me. I am not a communist or a supporter of Bolshevism. I guarantee that if Russia had encircled the US with "star wars" technology and then supported the invasion of a client state into Mexico, the US would have responded in kind. It is idiotic to assume that threatening Russia as we have will create a more peaceful world, but I assume that the DP elites will support your position.
(2.) "Based on Al Gore's speeches, Iraq stance, and the Dem's votes in Congress, I am convinced a President Gore would have taken the same action as Bush II."
I agree whole-heartedly, as do several other real progressives who post to BO. It's right-wing Democrats who disagree with you about that. On foreign policy, the DP and the RP are almost identical.
10:55 p.m.
Aug 23, '08
Troll #2, apart from anything else, the reason why the anti-war movement protests U.S. aggression is that the government is doing it in our name and with our tax dollars, and at least nominally is accountable to us (though obviously not only us). None of that is true of either Saakashvili's Georgia nor Putin's Russia.
There are some people in that anti-war movement who also protest about the Chinese in Tibet.
There are some people in the anti-war movement who are in a much more systematic way peace activists, and/or human rights activists, who do work against militarism and/or human rights violations more across the board.
The double standards issue applies to the Right as well as the Left, of course.
11:02 p.m.
Aug 23, '08
P.S. I never said the Georgians committed genocide, I said they made the first military attacks and invasion of territory they did not control, and in the course of doing so, killed hundreds of civilians -- that was per Western news organization reporting.
The scale of Russian and Russian-permitted anti-civilian violence and destruction inside Georgia under their counter-invasion and within South Ossetia is to my understanding much greater, and in South Ossetia seems to involve "ethnic cleansing" (a euphemism for forced population expulsion and ethnically targeted violence that I don't like).
Saakashvili still bears responsibility for giving them the opening and excuse, though they have responsibility for their own actions, as he does for his.
Aug 24, '08
"Saakashvili still bears responsibility for giving them the opening and excuse, though they have responsibility for their own actions, as he does for his."
Russia, like you, is great at pointing to their enemies "actions" as an opening and excuse. The more people around the world, let them the more the more aggressive they become.
Credible news outlest are stating that the conflict with Russia may have killed 100 to 2000 civilian Ossetians. That's both Russian and Georgian bombs, during the conflict. Western journalists have investigated Russia's claims of Georgian soliders killing Ossetians prior to the invasion, as you state (and Russia states is genocide) and they are unfounded.
Since you are giving Georgia responsibility, did Saddam bear any responsibility through Bush 4 years, Clinton's 8 and Bush's first few years? What about the Clinton CIA and the rest of the World's intelligence. Russia's intelligence thought Saddam had WMD's - or did Cheney infiltrate Russia's intelligence to modify it as well?
Reading this thread, I get the sense that those who are equating Georgia and Iraq, really think that Russia is actually more justified than the US.
Interesting that Russia killed more civilians and soldiers in 1 week than the US did in 5 years and there is no gnashing of teeth by the anti-war left.
If taxes/not in my name are the difference between getting riled up and storming the street or not, the I even have less respect for the Anti-War protesters. Pretty selfish and greedy. Not in my name or spending my taxes and it's not worth the same effort? What a sad and inconsistent excuse....
3:48 p.m.
Aug 24, '08
"Interesting that Russia killed more civilians and soldiers in 1 week than the US did in 5 years and there is no gnashing of teeth by the anti-war left."
I have no idea what you mean here. What figures are you citing for Russian-killed and for U.S.-killed? By 5 years I assume you mean since the invasion in 2003? Or some different five years?
Hussein bore huge responsibility for many things, going back to his aggression against Iran (which the U.S. supported, including his use of WMD and non-criticism of his chemical attacks on Iraqi citizens, later cited as reasons justifying the U.S. attack), his aggression against Kuwait, and for his complicity with the U.S. in the murderous sanctions regime of the 1990s.
But at the actual point of the invasion, he could not produce what the U.S. demanded (an accounting of his current WMD) because he had none, and he had done what had been demanded of him, i.e. destroyed them. The U.N. weapons inspectors opposed the invasion as unnecessary under the terms of the U.N. resolutions. It is quite plain that WMD were a false pretext and that the real aim was simply to overthrow the Iraqi government according to the fantasies of the neoconservatives about what would follow.
We might also look at at repeated U.S. promises to anti-Hussein forces to support uprisings, including Kurdish groups at least three times before and after the 1991 war, and the southern Iraqis once afterwards, that were broken and led to murderous brutal suppression by Hussein. Hussein clearly bore responsibility for his own actions in those cases, but so too does the U.S. I wonder if Saakashvili's misjudgment in launching his attack was purely his own?
<h2>Citizens of a country are more responsible for the actions of their own government than those of other governments. Protesting our government's aggression and violations of international law, as well as of our constitution, is our duty as citizens.</h2>