Bob Tiernan: As dishonest and overheated as ever.
This weekend's KGW public-affairs show "Straight Talk" featured a debate between the House Majority Leader, Rep. Mary Nolan (D-Portland), and Oregon GOP chair Bob Tiernan. They were debating the targeted spending cuts and tax increases that have been proposed by legislative Democrats to balance Oregon's budget while keeping critical public services alive.
I recommend watching the full video here. Nolan's presentation was clear and concise, carefully explaining exactly what needs to be done. (Dear KGW: Please make your videos embeddable; more people will watch online, which will lead to more people watching on TV.)
Meanwhile, Tiernan is known for his pugnacious style and combative attitude - and he stayed true to form. As Nolan pointed out, it sure was interesting that the Republicans marched out an ideological and partisan hack, rather than one of the legislators who is actually going to be voting on this stuff.
Tiernan was disingenous throughout, deliberately misunderstanding Nolan and setting up ridiculous strawmen to attack. For example, at one point he blurted out, "What is this? The Soviet Union?" (At 15:15 in the video.) Seriously. Is that useful or meangingful, Bob?
But setting aside questions of style, what got my attention was Tiernan's flat-out lie when it comes to the taxes paid by Oregon businesses.
Tiernan claimed that Oregon businesses "are already paying one of the highest tax rates in the country." (At 12:50.)
That's just flatly not true. And it's Tiernan's own anti-tax allies who say so. According to the Council on State Taxation - a collection of 600 large corporations that lobbies to reduce state taxes - Oregon has the second-lowest state and local business taxes in the country.
So, no, Bob, we don't have the highest business taxes in the country. Not even "one of the highest". Bob, we have the second-lowest. Say it with me, Bob: Oregon has the second-lowest state and local business taxes in the country.
Now, I happen to think that's a recipe for disinvestment and failure - but Bob, you should be proud. We've already got the tax system you've always wanted. Now, since - according to you and your friends - low taxes create jobs, would you mind telling us where all those jobs are already?
The Oregon GOP thinks Bob Tiernan is the guy to lead 'em out of the wilderness. Puh-leeze.
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May 25, 2009 |
Kari Chisholm | Comments (33 so far)
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Posted by: SwamiSam | May 25, 2009 1:36:40 PM
LOTS of businesses are taxed as sub-chapter S corps, which passes profits through to personal income and are taxed at Oregon's very high tax rate (which the democrats want to make higher still.)
Posted by: Old Ducker | May 25, 2009 1:38:08 PM
Thanks for that qualification, Kari. It never occured to me that God so loved Oregon that he gave us TWO Bob Tiernans.
Posted by: Kari Chisholm | May 25, 2009 1:48:10 PM
SwamiSam --
As the owner of a subchapter S corporation myself, I know exactly how that works.
But that's basically irrelevant to this discussion. #1. That's true in every state. #2. The COST report was for all businesses. I haven't studied their methodology in detail, but I presume their people are smart enough to understand the basics.
As OCPP noted at the time:
The study’s definition of taxes paid by businesses included an estimate of the personal income taxes that business owners pay when they use “pass-through entities” like limited liability companies and partnerships.
Posted by: Kari Chisholm | May 25, 2009 1:56:24 PM
Oh, and I have a question for all the righties that are sure to show up here: In your view, what is the correct level of taxation for businesses and individuals? Either as a rate, or as a percentage of the economy? What's the right number? (Or, do you believe the right number is zero?)
Posted by: Jamais Vu | May 25, 2009 2:01:00 PM
Thanks for this post, Kari. Unfortunately, presenting the truth and a lie on an equal basis is too often considered "balanced" reporting--for example, note the 1% of anti-global warming people who always get equal billing with scientists specializing in the field.
These kind of debates need moderators to at least ask, "what's your source for that?" How many of those who watched the debate will do any follow up research to see which claims are substantiated? Darn few, which is why B.T. & his ilk get away with this dangerous disinformation. We can debate tax rates and apportionment as values issues, but not the data behind them--there are such things are facts.
Posted by: Kari Chisholm | May 25, 2009 2:56:28 PM
I agree, Jamais. Hosts should do more than manage the clock and ask open-ended questions. They should be the voice of the audience, challenge the participants (on both sides) to back up their arguments, be clear about their numbers, and not get away with weasel words.
The host, Laural Porter, seems to be open to that discussion. She posted on the KGW blog:
I think I may need to take some lessons from Chris Matthews from MSNBC's "Hard Ball" about the best way to moderate shows like this. It's new for me.
And yeah, she should pick up some pointers from Matthews. He'll often challenge a guest to back up a point they've made; provide a source, etc.
Posted by: LT | May 25, 2009 4:34:23 PM
No surprise. What little of the show I saw (can't stand watching Tiernan) made me wonder why he was there instead of a legislator.
Also made me glad Nolan was debating him rather than a chair of W & M. Buckley represents Medford, it would have been inconvenient whereas Nolan and Tiernan come from the Portland area.
And does anyone remember what vaguely came into my memory watching the show---that Rep. Tiernan was openly rude (like making a big show of throwing away prepared testimony) to one of the African American members of the legislature?
I suspect that stunt may have been the beginning of the end for Tiernan in elective public office. I still recall what Devlin said to a reporter after defeating Tiernan--something along the lines of saying "the voters decided they wanted civility from their state rep."
Posted by: Carla Axtman | May 25, 2009 4:58:57 PM
I'm especially fascinated by the lack of a GOP legislator to debate Nolan on this. They really couldn't do better than Tiernan...?
Don't they have a potential gubernatorial candidate from their caucus that could use some TV face time?
Posted by: mp97303 | May 25, 2009 5:26:30 PM
@Kari in re: In your view, what is the correct level of taxation for businesses and individuals?
Not one dollar more than is necessary to provide the level of services the majority wants from their government.
###
It's funny, here I am a dittohead rightie but on conservative blogs I am a socialist librul. I must be doing something correct.
Posted by: Bill Bodden | May 25, 2009 6:00:18 PM
"We've already got the tax system you've always wanted."
Not quite if Oregon is second lowest. It is a good bet Tiernan wants zero taxes with Oregon at the lowest - with maybe government subsidies thrown in.
As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.
Posted by: Joe Hill | May 25, 2009 6:12:45 PM
mp97303 quoth:
"Not one dollar more than is necessary to provide the level of services the majority wants from their government."
The majority wants single payer health care.
The majority wants fully funded K-12 education.
But then, the majority also wants us out of Iraq and generally out of the American imperial project.
I guess it's a complicated question.
Posted by: Old Ducker | May 25, 2009 6:54:54 PM
"The majority wants single payer health care."
Would you care to back up this little gem with some facts?
Posted by: Carla Axtman | May 25, 2009 7:08:53 PM
"The majority wants single payer health care."
Would you care to back up this little gem with some facts?
You can start here.
More:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/08/22/BA5SRMMNU.DTL&type=politics
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/39859
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/SunMo_poll_0209.pdf
Posted by: Scott in Damascus | May 25, 2009 7:09:11 PM
Old D:
"A New York Times/CBS News poll released last week shows, yet again, that the majority of Americans support national health insurance.
The poll, which compares answers to the same questions from 30 years ago, finds that, “59% [of Americans] say the government should provide national health insurance, including 49% who say such insurance should cover all medical problems.”
Only 32% think that insurance should be left to private enterprise."
Sweet Jesus that took me almost 8 seconds on "the Google."
Oh, and your welcome.
Posted by: Jeff Alworth | May 25, 2009 7:29:23 PM
Nice post, Kari. I think it's instructive that the righties HAVEN'T challenged the substance of it. Sometimes it's better to just move on by.
Cheney, Tiernan ... nice way to build a party, there.
Posted by: Kari Chisholm | May 25, 2009 7:35:01 PM
Ok, that's enough chatter about national health care reform. This is a post about state budgets. Please stay on topic.
MP: You don't get off that easy. Please state exactly what level of taxes - in Oregon - is the right amount. Either dollars, tax rates, or percent of economy. Anything will do; I'm just tired of the "less" mantra. I want to know how much less.
Posted by: LT | May 25, 2009 7:59:33 PM
"Not one dollar more than is necessary to provide the level of services the majority wants from their government."
MP, seems to me your ideology is not left or right but vague.
I'm guessing you wouldn't want to get into a discussion, say, of what Measure 5 did to the property taxes of those who moved into a home which had been sold several times since M. 5 passed vs. someone who has owned property (business or residential) since long before Measure 5?
Or whether the lines at cash registers in stores at Woodburn Outlet Mall indicate an argument for sales tax (well written with attention to detail) to have a revenue source from tourism.
You just want to debate talking points, not details.
Posted by: Jenson | May 25, 2009 9:24:40 PM
I don't understand why the Democrats can't dispel this myth that higher incomes taxes prevent a company from hiring workers. Incomes taxes are levied on NET INCOME after any deductions for employee salaries and payroll taxes.
Hiring people will effectively reduce ANY income tax liability, which is the exact opposite of what the Republicans try and purport. I just wish we could dispel the talking point.
If any type of tax hurts a small business, it's the 7.65% FICA that they must fork over per employee wages. If any, this would be the tax that prevents a small business from hiring workers or increasing salaries.
And you can thank the facade of all facades Ronald Reagan for that one.
Posted by: AdmiralNaismith | May 25, 2009 9:55:04 PM
The majority wants single payer health care.
The majority wants fully funded K-12 education.
Yes, and the majority doesn't want to pay for any of it. Nothing new under the sun here.
Posted by: Kari Chisholm | May 25, 2009 11:05:32 PM
Jenson, an excellent point.
Posted by: mp97303 | May 25, 2009 11:17:02 PM
@Kari
Sorry Dude(Carla's word, not mine), I won't allow you to lump me in with anyone. The point of my statement is simple, not every community wants the same things from their government. I frankly don't care if the tax rate in Oregon is 9% or 18%. But if it is 18%, I damn sure want to see something for it. For 18%, the state better mow my yard and wash my dishes. I DON'T CARE IF GOVERNMENT IS BIG OR SMALL, I JUST WANT IT TO BE EFFICIENT WITH THE MONEY IT HAS.
@LT
Can you tell me where I have to go to sign up for these 'talking points' you all keep mentioning.
In re: M5 is a colossal cluster f***. It has screwed up the state from top to bottom. Specifically to your point of long-term owner vs. new owner, M5 bent the new owner over the white picket fence. When I lived in Chandler, AZ, as the housing bubble grew, the local gov'ts lowered the property tax rate to account for the rising property values. They still got more money, but the homeowners didn't get hammered over something they had no control over.
In re: I have supported a sales tax in some form for years. As long as it comes with a reduction in property and income rates, and some voter req'd increase mechanism, you have my vote and you always have.
@Jensen
You are correct about payroll taxes. The best thing you could do to stimulate hiring would be to raise the salary cap and lower the rate of FICA.
Your tax argument works for large corporations, but not the 90% of businesses in the US that employ 20 or fewer workers. The salary for the owners of many of these is the after-tax income. Sure, they could reduce their tax burden to $0 by hiring more workers, but then they would be homeless and you would have to support them.
Owners make decisions every year at budget time on what if any hiring they are going to do for the coming year. If you increase the tax burden on the base business income, then the owner IS less likely to hire more workers. If you raise the rate high enough, their only recourse is to lower their payroll burden so that they can maintain a profit margin that is warranted by the level of risk they have undertaken.
Posted by: Bob Tiernan | May 26, 2009 12:12:56 AM
Bill Bodden:
As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.
Bob T:
Now that's a pretty ignorant thing to say. That's my name and I'm going to keep it, tho' I'm often tempted to change it to the Irish spelling of Tighearnán.
Bob Tiernan
Portland
Posted by: steve | May 26, 2009 12:50:27 AM
This guy Tiernan is a reptile, absolutely repulsive. One would think that a serious opposition party would have a leader, or at least a spokesperson, who could articulate an alternative vision, propose a strategy for achieving that vision, and explain, with facts and logic, why that vision is better than the opposition's. Instead, what we get are lies and distortions, anger, rudeness, and boorishness. The movers and shakers in the Repub party, who elected Tiernan, must be a socially isolated group, if they feel that this type of personality will attract "non believers".
Posted by: Jenson | May 26, 2009 9:02:54 AM
mp97303,
That's why we have graduated tax rates. If a business owner is only left with $30,000 after paying for employee salaries and other expenses, then the tax burden is going to be minor. Well, I will admit that the graduation scheme at the Oregon level is pretty pathetic. We could make improvements upon that so the 9% rates doesn't kick in for much later. But, if this business owner has an S corp, then that $30,000 would not be subject to payroll taxes either.
So the main areas of improvement to our tax system could be reducing payroll taxes and making the current Oregon tax rates kick in at higher levels of income, i.e. making them into a truly progressive tax system.
Posted by: Scott J | May 26, 2009 10:28:11 AM
A zero corporate tax rate, for taxes paid at the entity level,not the pass through level, would be ideal.
The goal is to maximize employment. More employees equals more payroll and personal income taxes.
Have we so soon forgotten what drove the development of the Pearl District? It was tax incentives that turned NW Portland from a wharehouse slum into a thriving economic scene. How much development would have occurred in the area now called the Pearl if we had raised taxes on the developers and those with a stake in building out The Pearl vs providing tax incentives?
Think of the additionl tax revenue, and boost to the economy, from creating a place like The Pearl where affluent types come in and settle.
Today's WSJ, in section "A", has a nice piece about tax rates in NJ.
Posted by: Bill Bodden | May 26, 2009 12:13:11 PM
"Bill Bodden:
As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.
Bob T:
Now that's a pretty ignorant thing to say. That's my name and I'm going to keep it, tho' I'm often tempted to change it to the Irish spelling of Tighearnán. "
Bill B:
If I had been serious, Bob, your assessment would have been valid. However, because I was merely taking a little dig at the other Bob Tiernan you were wrong. And uptight?
How is "Tighearnán" pronounced? I have learned that English language phonetics have little relationship to the Irish language. I was in Dublin last year and am looking forward to another visit. Great place.
Posted by: dddave | May 26, 2009 7:34:11 PM
"Oh, and I have a question for all the righties that are sure to show up here: In your view, what is the correct level of taxation for businesses and individuals? Either as a rate, or as a percentage of the economy? What's the right number? (Or, do you believe the right number is zero?)"
Kari,
How freaking much is enough? The state budget has ballooned because it is tied percentage wise to economic growth, only it never goes BACK DOWN when things are in the shitter!! Biennium is what $46 BILLION? And it is going up 5%, and all we hear is the sky is falling?
Yes, all did benefit from a good economy in the past, but is that ANY justification for spending our asses off at state government?? Spending that can never go down? Programs that we all now HAVE to have? We probably pay an aggregate 50% plus with all taxes and fees now, so BACK TO YOU KARI, HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
75%?? When we have a system that guarantees 8% return regardless of actual fund performance and that also pays the highest retirements in the country, that system does NOT NEED ANY MORE MONEY. There is no one in PERS that deserves 108% of base pay, period, ever.
So again, the whore of state and local governments is breaking us. If you think all the idiotic program spending is good government, then I hope you are around when it all goes south hard, and can be held accountable.
Posted by: Bob Tiernan | May 26, 2009 11:39:37 PM
Bill Bodden:
As for "Bob Tiernan" if that were my name I would be tempted to change it to avoid confusion with the ORGOP chair.
Bob T:
Now that's a pretty ignorant thing to say. That's my name and I'm going to keep it, tho' I'm often tempted to change it to the Irish spelling of Tighearnán.
Bill Bodden:
If I had been serious, Bob, your assessment would have been valid. However, because I was merely taking a little dig at the other Bob Tiernan you were wrong. And uptight?
Bob T:
I don't care how unserious you were -- the thought was
stupid.
Bill Bodden:
How is "Tighearnán" pronounced?
Bob T:
Same way (and it means "lord", of all things). Many or most Irish names (including names of towns) sound pretty much the same when spelled in Irish, since the English merely spelled them in English in ways to keep the same sound as much as they could. When the Irish started using the same alphabet, they dispensed with a few, like K (using the hard C instead, and never a C for the S sound), and W replaced with BH in some cases.
Interesting language - they don't have a word for "have", for example. If you have something, like a pen, for example, you'd say, "Tá peann agam" for "I have a pen", which is literally "There is a pen at me". And there's no word for "like", so if you want to say you like something, like music, you'd say, "Is maith liom ceol", or literally, "Music is good with me".
Bill Bodden:
I was in Dublin last year and am looking forward to another visit. Great place.
Bob T:
Yes it is -- wish I could have stayed more than a few days there but I was more interested in the Galway, Cork, and Cong areas for most of my trip. There's a 9th Century church ruin near Galway called Church of Tiernan, or Kiltiernan, that I needed to see, as well as the site of the ambush of Michael Collins near Cork. More Dublin next time.
Bob Tiernan
Portland
Posted by: travesti | May 27, 2009 2:19:51 AM
Here is a very helpful summary that was passed on to me by a friend.
Posted by: rw | Jul 26, 2009 9:56:20 AM
Bugs me that local media, visual fishwrap over the waves, do zero research. They just show up, film bald Tiernan ventilating in the well-heeled township of anxious Lake Oswegolanders... and voila... we have our Nooze... no research, no commentary via structure of the story. Simplistic. What passes for news now in PDX is equivalent to the small-town publisher's shrug as they add a few adjectives to that day's allotment of AP dump.
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Posted by: Kari Chisholm | May 25, 2009 1:17:43 PM
I should point out something for our commenters. The Bob Tiernan who regularly comments here at BlueOregon is NOT this Bob Tiernan. Our regular commenter is a libertarian from Gresham. The Oregon GOP chairman is a Republican from Lake Oswego.