Health care, sunny days, and heaven and hell

T.A. Barnhart

When I was a teenager, I became a born-again Christian. One of the tenets of fundamentalism (which non-fundies would do well to remember) is that "we" (the Chosen, God's Holy People) are involved in a permanent war between good and evil:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

To twist another bit of New Testament, I have since become a man and left behind childish things, which, for me, is, in part, the temptation to religion. But one thing is more true than ever before: We are engaged in a struggle "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil." Let me restate the warning in political terms: The struggle is against corporate-institutional powers, not spiritual; yet, a struggle it is and a struggle it remains.

No one but the wonkiest geek is enamored of the idea of non-stop political battle over anything. Every-other year is more than enough for most people. But despite an overwhelming set of victories in 2006 and 2008, an unending political war is exactly what we are engaged in. The entrenched powers refuse to concede defeat. No surprise there; the money and power involved are immense. Of course those who stand to gain from a continuation of the status quo will do all they can to keep that status quo'd. Those of us on the receiving end had better understand we have two choices: Ignore politics outside of election season, or recognize what's at stake and suck it up. If we do not want to lose this battle, we need to keep it going, day after day, even though, to put it mildly, that options sucks.

But not as bad as the first option.

This comes to mind, not because I wandered into church today (I have not made that mistake in years; I did listen to the Dodgers online, whumping on the Marlins) but because the inestimable Henry Kraemer invited me to attend a house party for Health Care for America NOW! There are, of course, approximately about 10,000 issues worthy of my time and energy: the planet is being murdered, Portland's bike paths are in heinous condition, poverty, joblessness, education, maple bats that can't take the strain, environmental racism, human trafficking, honest pints, net neutrality, and have I mentioned lately my son is heading for Iraq? But for anyone paying attention to our current economic and political circumstances, one thing is crystal clear: If we cannot fix our health "care" system, we are unlikely to be able to anything else of import. This is the critical issue, the one upon which everything else turns.

In other words, it's a very big deal.

I am well aware of how monumental health care is. I have previously told Julie at the Archimedes Project I would help out. So far, I have done, um, well, I guess if you measured it accurately, it would come to "dick". But! I do know it is the biggest of the big deals we are facing. So saying Yes to Henry's invite to the HCAN house party was easy.

And now, what? What do I do now that I've attended another event, made another commitment, had my consciousness about the issue raised a little bit more? What next?

Something. Anything. The bottom line is, as the President tries to get Americans to understand, that if we don't fix how we do health care, we won't have the ability — read: money — to fix anything else. Our so-called health care system is what's going to finish the job of insolvency started by the unregulated financial system. Not to mention that a broken health care system means that millions of Americans will continue to suffer and die needlessly. We have to get this right, and now. We have the opportunity this year, and we have to take advantage.

The biggest obstacle real reform faces is getting the "public option" past the forces of darkness (ie, the health insurance cabal). Without a public option (offering Americans an alternative to the private insurance companies, something along the lines of Medicare — or, as Obama likes to say, the same health care plan enjoyed by Congress), the private companies have no incentive to change. A public option, having no need to make a profit but every need to provide the best possible service, will change the game. I think it's the first step towards the real long-term solution, single-payer — and I'm pretty sure the health insurance crime syndicates believe exactly the same thing. Hence the life-and-death struggle. Single-payer means the end of insurance as a for-profit criminal enterprise protected by unjust laws.

If we lose this one, we are fucked. Pure and simple. If we cannot push public-option across the goal line, it's all for naught. But we will not achieve this absolutely essential goal without the American public, especially the grassroots who got Obama elected, getting back in the game. Not gonna happen. That's why Obama has kept his campaign organization in place: not to prepare for 2012 but to win political battles like this in 2009 and 2010. That's why Earl Blumenauer was on a conference call with 21 house parties this afternoon. That's why John Kitzhaber has not settled quietly into retirement but is working as hard as ever: not merely to fix health care but to fix what's wrong with Americans and their attitudes toward government.

I can't think of many people who would prefer spending an hour doing politics on a beautiful Sunday afternoon to enjoying cold drinks and snackage (well, we did both, but we're Bus people). Despite the unpleasantness of the task required of us, friends and neighbors, we literally have no choice. The forces of darkness — the insurance companies and their accomplices — have billions to spend on this battle. All we have is our time and energy. But there are millions of us, and in a representative democracy, we are the bottom line. If we get our acts together and join forces in order to keep the battle going day after day, we can upset the status quo; case in point, Barack Obama. We can do it again with health care. If we don't, everything we did in 2008, everything we hope for is probably nothing more than pissing in the wind (an appropriate reference to the movie "The Hospital").

No one is being asked to give up every moment of free time for the health care struggle. If you do one or two things a week, that's enough. Sign up with HCAN and the Archimedes Project. Contact your state representative and senator; find out where they stand on the bills facing the Oregon Legislature. Call Sen Merkley, who supports the public option, and Sen Wyden, who has not stated that he does, and encourage them both. Write the Oregonian and any magazines you subscribe to. Pay attention to the news and respond when you see lies being printed and broadcast. Take the time to be part of the change we need. I figure an hour a week is enough. I'm pretty sure we each have that much to spare.

I no longer believe in a god so small he needs to prove the justness of his cause on a single planet in the entire universe. But I do believe in something great, powerful and ineffably sublime: democracy. We have a chance to do something incredible this year, to win a battle that has seemed hopeless for so long. We face an enemy with huge amounts of money, thousands of lobbyists, and the power of inertia on its side. We can win this struggle, but only if we decide to counter their determination with our own. It's not about heaven and hell; it's about something far greater, far more precious:

Human beings and a decent quality of life.

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    The following is an opinion piece I had published in the (Bend) Bulletin last year. Hopefully, it will preclude some nonsensical comments about "socialized" medicine.

    "With health care rated as a very important issue for voters we will certainly have many people pontificating on this issue with “socialism” included in a pejorative manner in their comments.

    "The first national health care system for a modern industrialized nation was proposed by one of Europe's most conservative statesmen, Otto von Bismarck. His motivation came not from some Damascene conversion to liberal thinking but from an extension of conservatism in its truest sense. Bismarck recognized that if his nation was to be strong militarily and economically it would need healthy citizens.

    "The Labour (socialist) Party in Britain was prominent in pushing for their own national health care system, but they were joined by another staunch conservative, Winston Churchill. Socialists may have have had a humanitarian motivation, but Churchill was more aligned with Bismarck in thinking of the national interest.

    "Germans continued Bismarck's philosophy of concern for the health of people serving the nation's interests by taking care of their soldiers in the First World War. While Allied soldiers were wallowing in mud on the front lines, German soldiers stood guard on dry boards in their trenches. When they knew at dawn of November 11, 1918 that an armistice would be signed at 11:00 a.m. that day, German generals honorably told their men to stand down unlike their British, French and American (Pershing and MacArthur) counterparts who senselessly and criminally ordered their troops to continue fighting - and dying - until a few minutes before the signing ceremonies. This oligarchic indifference for the people was part of American culture before WWI and continues to this day. Another form of this contempt for people takes place in the health care system consigning millions of people, including children, to an existence without resources for medical attention when needed and most economically effective.

    "As human nature often dictates, people with a lust for power attract the sheep-like masses and together they more often than not prevail over the remaining minority who still believe in the now apparently quaint concept of a right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and justice for all.

    "It would be to the credit of the United States if we were motivated by both humanitarian and conservative (in its truest sense) principles, but because our humanity is limited and self-interest tends to prevail let's consider this latter aspect.

    "Our present national system (if that is the right word) of health care clearly has nothing to do with socialism so we can't blame that politico-economic system for its incompetence and failures. As a recent article in the Bulletin about the schism between doctor groups and the hospital system indicated, a capitalist environment isn't working all that well in the delivery of health care. In a World Health Organization Year-2000 report (http://www.who.int/whr/en/) on national health systems around the world, France, which has alternated between socialist and conservative governments, was rated first in overall performance. Italy, with a variety of more chaotic governments, came in second. The United States came in 37th. Canada was 30th. Embargoed Cuba was 39th. Despite paying much less per capita for health care, all western European nations, Japan and Australia had better ratings than the United States."

  • james (unverified)
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    TA said "I have since become a man and left behind childish things, which, for me, is, in part, the temptation to religion"

    Based on my years on this planet, everyone has a God or Religion, especially those who disavow they have a God or a Religion. I've found their God is money, power, a political party, or political movement - "progressiveness" (not Democracy). When I read that similar passage in the Bible many years ago, I didn't think that was true. But now knowing several secularists, I know it to be very true indeed.

    Childish? No. But I'll admit that there are those in religion who never grow up (evolve) past third grade Sunday school and that most anti-religious people who base their biases on a third grade sunday school level.

    I'm confused. Universal Health care is democracy, not socialism? Now democracy equal's socialism? Come one, you can at least be honest in your "religion" can't you?

    For what it's worth, every time I talk to someone in their 90's about how we need to improve our quality of life, I get laughed at and told that we do have a great quality of life. Better than we have ever had. We are just have more free time and tend to whine a lot about little things.

  • Alijane (unverified)
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    As one who must constantly increase the deductable with each renewal of my health insurance policy, I have a stake in this matter. Why do my premiums go up every year? To pay for the uninsured,to make certain investors make a profit and CEO's are rewarded for cost cutting. The idea of "free" health care makes all these proposals sound inviting, but reality is health care in America will be greatly diminished. There are not enough health care providers, the big drug companies will continue to increase prices as will medical device manufacturers and the greed will only grow at the expense of the taxpayer. We will be paying more and more for less and less health care, longer waits and denial of treatment.

    First, government needs to make certain they are getting the best bang for the buck for the investment of health care dollars. In Ohio, the state spend $1.5 M on nicotine replacement drugs for 300 clients of their tobacco quit line. There is only a 1.6% success rate for NRT drugs. Imagine the true health care for sick people that money could have/should have been spent on. Spend the cash on health care and not health nagging.

    Oregon give DHS clients an Oregon Trail card, why not an Oregon Health Card (no cash value) to spend on the health services they need? Reduce the paperwork and the layers of administration. Health care providers would be paid at the time of serive with very little paperwork that cost health care providers too much time and money.

    No to National Healthcare, until cost saving measures are tried first.

  • LT (unverified)
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    I like the good old King James Version language of that quote, TA:

    "1For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

    We should also remember that sloth and pride are among the 7 deadly sins.

    We need to have open public debate about all kinds of issues incl. health care.

    What we don't need is a legislature or a party which tries to shut down conversations/ debates on any issue saying something is impossible, going against tradition, not the way things are usually done, etc.

    If Democrats can't get things done in the legislature this session with supermajorities, they won't have a supermajority next session because people will wonder why they didn't try harder.

  • Jacob Grier (unverified)
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    A tip for outreach: Telling people who disagree with you that they are allied with "the forces of darkness" is no way to win them over. There are many good-natured people who doubt government's ability to provide health care. Perhaps you should try taking their arguments seriously and addressing their concerns instead of framing this as a war between good and evil. Posts like this smack of being written by a true believer and set skeptical alarm bells ringing.

  • Alijane (unverified)
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    There is no way to take the profit out of health care, someone is going to be making a lot of money and the more we narrow the choices people can make, the more profit a narrow group of companies and individuals will make from the governnment system.

    Here I am average middle class, paying my own way and getting less and less for my health care dollars. I can afford less for myself because government or someone has decided that the poor and illegal aleins deserve better health care, 100% free and full acccess.

    The system is broken and dumping more and more of the cost on the worker bees to provide for others will only make it worse. Small business will be forced to stop providing health insurance for their employees and I wonder how long I can continue to face increasing premiums and still afford the basics like food and shelter?

    There is no free lunch, you work for it or you should not get one - except for those who truly are disabled or too infirm to work. It is not a religeous issue or a morale issue, it is getting to be survival of the fittest.

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    Jacob

    in refering to forces of darkness, i was not talking about citizens; i was talking about the corporations who profit from our current system. i made that clear from the outset. anyone who has paid attention to what Obama is proposing knows his and all similar plans allow anyone on a private plan to stay right there. no one is being forced to take the government-run option.

    while i do not believe in anyone's religion, i do believe that people do things that are evil. what the health insurance and provision industries are doing, for the sake of money, is ... very bad. it's wrong. it's unfair. trading health for profit: you got a better name for it?

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    Alijane, since when is receiving a benefit from a government to whom i pay taxes a free lunch? i worked goddamned hard & i pay quite a bit of taxes. right now they take plenty for the military, for tax breaks for corporations and rich people, for all kinds of things i find offensive and wrong but, well hell, that's what we get with a representative democracy. is it too much to ask that, since i absolutely cannot afford private health care, my government provide one i can afford? after all, the roads i bike to work on each were not provided by GE or Monsanto or Dow; they were provided by the American taxpayer.

    you should really pay attention to how the system is broken. middle-class wealth is moving upward, to the rich and powerful, private and corporate alike. that's what's broken. ending the health insurance industry's stranglehold on health-care provision is a vital step towards the repairs we need.

  • Jacob Grier (unverified)
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    t.a. -- I realize that's who you were addressing directly, but there's nothing in your post giving any acknowledgment to the fact that there's widespread skepticism about government provision of health care among citizens. You write as if there's one clearly right thing to do and the only thing standing in the way of doing it is evil insurance companies. Where does that leave ordinary people who oppose the plan?

    Also, your emphasis on the fact that the plan will leave private plans intact is hard to square with your earlier statement above: "I think it's the first step towards the real long-term solution, single-payer — and I'm pretty sure the health insurance crime syndicates believe exactly the same thing." If your first statement is true, people who oppose single-payer are right to be concerned about the public option, are they not?

  • Bill R. (unverified)
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    Jacob Grier- ".. widespread cynicism about government providing health care."

    Who has that cynicism? I don't see veterans wanting to decline their govt. provided health care. They're asking for more of it. I don't see seniors declining their govt. provided health care. They want more of it. I don't see govt. employees or Congressional reps or Senators declining their govt. provided health care. Mostly Americans would like to have more of it themselves. And those in Canada who have it, like it overwhelmingly. So you can play the wingnut card about how govt. can't do anything right, but take a look around. Do you really trust our insurance companies and their relentless pursuit of profit by skimming their growing cut out of every health care dollar for their CEOs bonuses and the stock holder dividends, while Medicare has much greater efficiencies in administering health care than the corporate robber barons.

    @ T.A. Barnhart- Why is it so necessary to slam people who are religious while you are trying presumably to drum up support for universal health care? Does that really help the cause? No one cares about your private angst about fundamentalist religion, and those who are religious might resent your tarring all religion with your unhappy experience with fundamentalism. You are hurting your own cause. I suspect you frankly don't know anything about the diversity of religion, and your disrespect is offensive and a distraction.

  • Frank (unverified)
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    Jacob Grier: "I realize that's who you were addressing directly, but there's nothing in your post giving any acknowledgment to the fact that there's widespread skepticism about government provision of health care among citizens."

    There is no skepticism in every other industrialized country in the world about government provided health care. The citizens in every single other industrialized nation in the world has government provided health care. It works well in every single other industrialized country in the world.

    No skepticism anywhere else in the world. NONE.

  • yeni oyun (unverified)
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    They want more of it. I don't see govt. employees or Congressional reps or Senators declining their govt. provided health care. Mostly Americans would like to have more of it themselves. And those in Canada who have it, like it overwhelmingly. So you can play the wingnut card about how govt. can't do anything right, but take a look aroundavatar oyunlarısünger bob oyunlarıyeni oyunlar

  • Bill R. (unverified)
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    70 Cong. Dem Reps have said they will not support a health care plan without a public option. A number of blue dog senators are threatening to block a public option and vote with the Republicans. If Dems fail to pass universal health care, they will lose the Congress and the presidency for a generation. The focus right now should be on these blue dog Senators, they are the real obstructionists now. Evan Bayh is the chief obstructionist: Sens. Mark Udall (Colo.), Evan Bayh (Ind.), Michael Bennet (Colo.), Mark Begich (Alaska), Tom Carper (Del.), Kay Hagan (N.C.), Herb Kohl (Wis.), Mary Landrieu (La.), Joe Lieberman (Conn.), Blanche Lincoln (Ark.), Ben Nelson (Neb.) , Bill Nelson (Fla.), Jeanne Shaheen (N.H.), and Mark Warner (Va.).

    And right now is a critical moment. Here's a good Dkos diary on what needs to be done. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/18/732733/-Please-Call-Today-To-Support-The-Public-Option!

  • Alijane (unverified)
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    My point was, you cannot place all the blame to the cost of health care on the insurance industry. They are many, many players to be dealt with before a government funded health care program is instituted.

    People in nations with national health care programs face long waits, limited services and getting parked in a hospital hallway due to a lack of patient beds. Many are told to go home and die, their health care would be too costly. Perhaps that is what all should do for society, die quietly and don't seek medical care or treatment.

    That would be the ultimate good citizen, right?

  • Frank (unverified)
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    Alijane: "My point was, you cannot place all the blame to the cost of health care on the insurance industry."

    Yes, the pharmaceutical industry and these new health care administration corporations (ex. Frist family's "Hospital Corporation of America") will also have their own special place in Hell, too.

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    "People in nations with national health care programs face long waits, limited services and getting parked in a hospital hallway due to a lack of patient beds. Many are told to go home and die, their health care would be too costly. Perhaps that is what all should do for society, die quietly and don't seek medical care or treatment."

    Alijane: You need to quit listening to Rush Limpbag or some other manipulator of wing-nuts. Your statement is utter hogwash.

    As for the Democrats opposing health care reform, check opensecrets dot org for reasons why they have taken their positions.

  • Frank (unverified)
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    Alijane "People in nations with national health care programs face long waits, limited services and getting parked in a hospital hallway due to a lack of patient beds."

    Get a new lie, would ya'? Those right wing talking points have been debunked over and over and over so many times it's any fun to crush them any more.

    The ONLY people who will be forced to wait for surgery are those seeking boob jobs, nose jobs, and other voluntary augmentation procedure. We all know about how the Filthy Rich throw tantrums if they are forced to wait for anything.

  • Kurt Chapman (unverified)
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    Frank, you're wrong - get over it. The average wait time for a heart catherization in Canada is 3-4 weeks. In the US it is 3-4 days. There are similar waiting times for MRI's, Cat Scans and other diagnostic procedures. I do not know the wait times in France, England or Japan.

    I am full favor of an open and vigorous debate over how we "fix" health care delievery in the US. Make no mistake, the current program is broken and needs drastic repair, not re-arranging.

    Other items that MUST be address in this debate: Individual Choice and Lifestyle - face it we are lethargic, sedentary, eat wrong, smoke, drink and eat too much. Pharma - must let go of proprietary drug regulations that they currently manipulate for their own profit. Drug advertising - Do we REALLY need all thos drug advertisements? Frivolous Lawsuits - Loser pays, cap Class Action settlemnts, restrict advertising.

    These are in addition to the other fine suggestions made by others.

  • Ten Bears (unverified)
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    I’ve been railing about “health insurance” for quite some time now, and as the debate has deepened it has become increasingly clear that what Americans want, what we need, is health care, not insurance.

    When you’re doing without, you do what you can to take care of yourself, and hope nothing ever happens. When you find yourself on the floor with an acute appendicitis, well… you put yourself in debt. By Saturday afternoon I was been prepped for surgery, by Sunday morning I had checked myself out against advice as I just can’t afford it.

    I’m extremely grateful to those who were there in my need.

  • rw (unverified)
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    TA: this is a good and necessary piece of writing. Thank you for that. I am the poster child for these issues. I was a very strong, adroit, intelligent woman who could do crack office work, research support AND was not ashamed to run a paintbrush or drywall install, dance that dance in the roofing jamboree at a contractor level plus crews. I did it all and loved the fact that this was so. It fit my image and also served my survival many a time.

    One fabulous and uninsured car crash later, my life is radically never to be the same again - my mental functioning is not what it should be - chronic pain, survivalism, stress will do that. I am no longer able to do most of the worklife endeavours I had to call my own. My economic survival is absolutely more dicey - as right now my current professional niche is in danger of being shopped over to even more desperate people in Hindi sweatshops -- that will make three FULLY professional/trained niches that have come and gone in 15 years, and I am now wondering where the HELL can I respecialise AGAIN at this age? WIthout more education, that is.

    SO: my point - the key to all of this is my health. I have been debilitated in a way that was not neccesary, and made far less able to make the living that I must make as a result of being completely shut out of ANY medical care when I got back home from Chile, and, once insured, priced out of accessing the care I needed still. THEN, once I was on the system at Kaiser I could afford, the PT offerings were so mediocre, horribly second=rate....... I shrugged and walked away from it, accepting that this was it.

    For the fact of NO basic medical care I am now a debilitated worker carrying on the tasks of a fully-able American worker as necessary. Quality of life now is absolutely a thing of choosing.

    I can tell many more stories of loss of actual abilities and potential due to inadequate or absent health care. And now that our economy is crumbling away and jobs going with it, the healthcare is going away too. Duh... why do AliJ and others like that not get this?

    If workers doing whatever they must off the employment-based insurance grid get injured just doing survival, we are going to be in even worse shape. And as others with "conditions" no longer can access at least their over-priced and not always adequate care, these, too will cease to function the way they need to so as to be of best use to their jobs, their employers, the nation.

    Health care is critical. Health care is so unbelievably critical...

  • rw (unverified)
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    ... and TA: I'll hold wishes for the safety and sanity of your son. Let's hope for the wind-down and for him to be very, very strong of mind and focus. I've also got a niece now being sent over there. SHe went into boot camp to get straightened out recently... and now there she goes. Just beats me to hell why this has to be. The optionless are optioned away.

  • rw (unverified)
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    Hmmm... much as I think Bill R was being a bit ranty and reactive, TA, I admit I felt a moment of: "Hmmmm... so he would be laughing out his ass at me and my son as we enter our third day of no food or water, on our feet, making a particular prayer for all of us... and label us some kind of way. That rather stings. Hmmm."

    I wondered if the disrespect you felt coming at you from wherever that had come from had now spawned a fiercely reactive ... disrespect that broadly comes back in the other direction!

    Cause I think if you sneer at the prayers of reasonable xians, then you must likely and likewise sneer at the prayers of the traditionalists too? Prayer is prayer even if the humans attempting them are equally and dreadfully human too. I get what you mean about not wanting to appraoch your politics with political fervor - that IS a feature of the Blue Oregon pols... and pols everywhere!!! But maybe just a little less lambasting towards the praying ones, since it was so crusty it did actually make me stop a moment and wonder what kind of opinionations me and mine would withstand!

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    Alijane "People in nations with national health care programs face long waits, limited services and getting parked in a hospital hallway due to a lack of patient beds."

    Last year my brother-in-law led a group of students on a tour of Greece and Italy. One of the students became ill after arriving in Italy from Greece. (She apparently ignored a sign and drank some non-potable water on the ferry from Greece to Italy.) Her condition worsened by the time the group reached Rome where she was taken to a hospital and admitted immediately. She received excellent care and was back on the mend in a couple of days. My brother-in-law asked about paying for this treatment when the student was discharged. He was told the entire time and care in the hospital were free.

    Chris Hedges and David Sirota have articles at truthdig dot com that help to explain why the United States has such a poor medical system(?) overall. Sirota's article - Health Care's Enigma in Chief - is more obvious. Hedges' article - The Disease of Permanent War - is the more ominous.

  • rw (unverified)
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    ta, correction: i like that you seem to be saying you do not want to be a political religionist. We humans tend towards zealotry. RElgionists do, politicals do too.

    It is a good prayer to endeavour to eschew fervently blind politics or religion...

  • GWeiss (unverified)
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    It sounds to me, with my admittedly limited news sources, that it's the Dems in the Senate that are sabotaging real health care reform. It looks like Baucus and Schumer are playing gatekeeper so no public-pay options can be included in the health care options receiving serious consideration.

    Did the big companies with their convenient "$2 billion in cost savings" promise remove the need for real reform? That Schumer and Baucus are carrying water for them is really demoralizing.

    If it doesn't happen now, when will health care reform really happen?

  • rw (unverified)
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    As we walked down 23rd AV yesterday and saw the five hundred and three hundred dollar dresses next to the crappy little flimsy frocks for fifty... we wondered, "who the hell are these people? It is as if reality for everyone we know will never touch the ones who run it." We just had trouble believing our eyes.

    If it does not happen now, it never will. If there is a lack of will to compassion, much less intelligence now: it is terminally nonexistent.

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    "Did the big companies with their convenient "$2 billion in cost savings" promise remove the need for real reform? That Schumer and Baucus are carrying water for them is really demoralizing."

    This is the sort of behavior that causes people to make statements such as "there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the Republicans and the Democrats." There are, however, some differences as when the lobbyists buying Congress decide to give more to one party than the other. In the end run, it often makes little difference to regular citizens who continue to show their tribal loyalty to one party or the other while the party they tolerate takes care of the corporations even if it means giving the people the shaft.

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    Bill R, religion is a major obstacle to almost every progressive goal we seek. fundamentalists are waiting for Jesus to come back & don't really care about long-term change. i know; i lived that for 10 years of my life. it matters a great deal. as we see with the struggle to achieve full civil rights for glbt people, this kind of religion does harm people. i try to avoid saying against anyone's faith; that's a different matter. but religion in America is a huge problem, esp the fundamentalists.

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    GWeiss, it may take a while to play out, but it looks like the health insurance companies are doing what the GOP in the Congress did: take Obama's welcome & abuse it. during his campaign, he made it clear that he would not keep anyone from the table. all parties are welcome to participate in the process. those who refuse to be a productive part of the process, like the Rs, shut themselves out. if the ins. companies renege on commitments are try to sabotage the work that's going on, they're going to find themselves shut out of the process.

    the same goes for Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and any other Dem who fights the President on this key part of the plan. like Butch, they'll lose their privileges.

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    "...but religion in America is a huge problem..."

    You're right on the money on this, T.A. The problem is that religion is not confined to churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, etc. Capitalism, socialism, communism, political parties and ideologies have much in common with religion when their disciples reject reason and evidence for what they want to believe.

  • Bill R. (unverified)
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    T.A- "Bill R, religion is a major obstacle to almost every progressive goal we seek."

    When you make those blanket statements, it's just plain bigotry. So when you make those idiotic blanket statements about religion, which religions are you addressing, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Neo-Pagan, Native American, Seikh, all of them? So you're asserting now that only secular atheists have the right kind of values. Only secular atheists are the keepers of the flame of truth and good. That's really going to sell universal healthcare. And in the process you give a bad name to this blog, and the progressive movement in general. The religious community I belong to is in the forefront of the fight for gay rights, universal health care, funding of education, peace and war issues, environmental justice, and a whole host of what are considered "progressive" issues. But, you, with your piddling little foray into fundamentalist "Bible-Thumping" are prepared to disrespect and condemn all religion, based on your adolescent scars. And in so doing you're prepared to lose whatever credibility with the vast majority of Americans who are identified with religion, and take inspiration from it in trying to do some good in this world. Well, go ahead, you can bathe in your infantile progressive purity and false certainties, and marginalize yourself, as the radical and narrow secularists so often do. The irony here is that your comments here are just as narrow and ideological as you probably were as a bible-thumper. Two sides of the same coin. Hasn't changed a bit.

  • rw (unverified)
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    Bill R - I agree. TA does not make any answer to me, a traditionalist woman. And towards me and my family. He is in a monologue with the ones who hurt him: the mainstream fundamentalists have his attention.

    But the conversation belongs with all of us who seek to engage him and notice who else is caught up in his gillnets. Hapless others, not the sharks and barracudas he dreams of dragging from the sea.

    TA: your comments did touch me in a way that made me wonder if you would couch private judgements about me and mine. And we are not even worth a passing comment from you.

    THIS is the enemy of true progressivism: folks' bandwagons, obsessions, focused wounds and traumas. And the lack of interest in or ability to engage the unexpected or unsought voice that comes whispering in on the wind.

    You seek to MAKE this exchange go a certain way with certain people, and in this way TA, wtih all your good heart, you continue to manifest the fight you say you do not enjoy.

    Just a hardcore observation - because my ki gung master aims that same at ME. I recognize it.

    Maybe you will too.

  • rw (unverified)
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    Just back, a little bit of clarify: I do not feel, pugilistically, as Bill R does, in terms of all of the other-direction judgement of TA.

    But I AM noticing that this is a templated monologue. And it does not allow for any enlightenment: it's a one-track from injuries not yet worked through.

    Bill R, you might hopefully feel some shame for pushing your finger in TA's face like that. IF he truly is working from, as you say, "adolescent" injury, then you as the great and wonderful god fearing man you purport to be should be speaking in gentle tones of some understanding in his direction. You are giving as good as you believe you got.

    This blog is startlingly lacking in diversity of discourse, but it's all we have, locally. We do not do that "weaving of voices in tapestry" thing we want to believe we have. We allow tokenized contributions and perform our duty in defending them from the standard fare of discourse. Every blog develops its protected classes and we are no different from any others, being as how we are a subsociety.

  • HC (unverified)
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    Frank, you're wrong - get over it. The average wait time for a heart catherization in Canada is 3-4 weeks. In the US it is 3-4 days. There are similar waiting times for MRI's, Cat Scans and other diagnostic procedures. I do not know the wait times in France, England or Japan.

    Of course, Kurt's info here maybe reasonably accurate, but somewhat less than fully informative in the way that matters:

    In Canada access is primarily prioritized based on the threat to life of a person's condition, not the procedure per se. In line with that, elective procedures have a lower priority than non-elective procedures.

    In the U.S., your wait time is based on how good your insurance is and whether it covers the particular procedure you need, and, frankly, the relative wealth of the community the care providing facility serves because that translates to relative supply of services.

    And I don't know about most of you, but I know from experience the wait time at OHSU to even get in for an exam for a condition that is recognizably potentially serious can be a month or more. Once you're in, things can go faster, but the total time from first contact to treatment may be equivalent to that in Canada, it's just distributed differently.

    Somebody up the threat listed Senators to call to support a public option: Add Wyden to that list because his office refuses to state whether he agrees with Merkley on a public option and in the past he has not lifted a finger to support anything but pro-industry solutions. I'm sure the offices of those Senators from states we don't live in are going to be less than sympathetic to an Oregonian calling who can't say they've already put the heat to Wyden.

  • Bill R. (unverified)
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    @ rw

    Your points are well taken. First mistake is that I don't pretend to be a "great and God-fearing man." So shaming me is ineffective, and the Master says, "God alone is good."

    Returning to my original point.. what does contempt for religion have to do with universal healthcare? Yet that's the lede in T.A's post. The text would make a great GOP attack ad. Those here who are the keepers of the flame of the religion of "Holy Progressivism" seems to want to use it as a tool of exclusion rather than inclusion. It makes them not only ineffective but they turn themselves into all those caricatures the right wing makes about lefties, hatred of religion, superior worshipers of urban secular culture... and all the rest of it.

    You're right about this forum. It's a travesty compared to what it used to be. A site for left and right wing trash talking, or for ridiculous posts like the one above, that are all about T.A... and little about healthcare.

    So.. I'm outta here.. I know, I know.. "Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

  • Alijane (unverified)
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    I can only share for discussion, I did not attack anyone nor try to belittle another's take on the subject. I have friends in national health care countries. Yes, they like the "free" health care, when they can get it. We need to understand there are as many people in Canada without a personal physician as there are uninsured in the US. They have free clinics when they need health care and they can sit in the clinic day in and day out for a week or more before they are seen by a doctor. They will never have to file for bankrupcy to pay for their health care to insurance as many of us will if we have the misfortune to become seriously ill.

    Do I have all the answers? Of course not, but I would rather see the country go slow on the issue. We cannot factor out greed, nor can the nation nationalize all aspects of heatlh care from medical care providers, drug manufacturer's or medical device makers without destroying everyones 401K and investments in these companies.

    When playing with government money there will always be the issue of cheating, like one of the big drug companies was just found to be overcharging Medicare/Medicaid for a prescription acid drug.

  • rw (unverified)
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    AliJ, I work in Regulatory. I get daily OIG bulletins detailing the latest hospital, device manufacturer, medical group etc. who have swindled Medicare. We do not receive news of the punishment (is there any? I've not heard of it, yet) - but daily I see these reports.

    That is a good point. Yet, AliJ, my health and functioning, my ability to keep me and my boy in good shape and continue in my own education, and growth and professional joy... these were destroyed, utterly derailed for over a decade. Due to the absolute JOKE, heinous JOKE of a "medical care system" that America possesses.

    I ride the rails on this one. In more ways than a few.

  • rw (unverified)
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    Bill R, you Dumbass, quit being disingenuous. TA was using this as a metaphor, nitwit. A metaphor for the focusing lens of fundamnentalist passion for or against this or that in politics. If I can see that, surely you can?

    And: you went on and on and ON and on about the "vast majority" (hackneyed phrase for which you should have been shot, darling) of god-fearin'..... retch.

    So I just kinda thought you might pull yerself up by yer shorthairs and make note that just as you were busting TA around the ears, you yourself were exhibiting everything you were belaboring the man for.

    ;)>... and, anyway: it was a M - E - T - A - P - H - O - R

  • rw (unverified)
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    ... and that, as at least one of your stalwart core-group Mighties will know, was purely for twenty seconds of blistering-pace typatoriations of entertainment.

    Sorry both of you.

    Simply WOULD not resist.

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    Barnhart's hatred of religious people is key to understanding his blind faith in government.

    When referring to 'evil' he explains, he wasn't talking about 'citizens', no he was talking about 'corporations'.

    What are corporations but a group of citizens?

    What Barnhart modestly proposes is for the government to establish it's own health care corporation and run private health care companies into the ground by selling at a loss if necessary.

    It's the Walmart pattern, put to use by government. Run out the competition by taking advantage of your own deep pockets.

    And then when there's no competition left, you can set your own prices.

    (Some things are even more important than health care, such as food.

    Should the government also establish a string of grocery stores, undercut private stores in price until they are out of business and then be the sole provider of food for Americans? Why not?)

    You speak of evil, Mr Barnhart?

    You haven't seen evil till you see the government as the Last Man Standing; and your only option to get the operation you need to save your life.

    When health care rationing starts, as it has already in countries with socialized medicine, you'll regret the day you blindly trusted the government.

  • Martin Burch (unverified)
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    I'm new here, but some of you know me.

    First, about the good/evil part of TA's post. I know what he MEANT. I don't necessarily agree, for I believe there isn't any good, or bad, or evil, or the like except for how any given society sets up its rules of behavior and judgment. Actions are actions. How we choose to label them with qualitative modifiers that imply values are more or less irrelevant.

    That said, I also believe that the discussion about healthcare moves forward when framed in terms of cost. No right and wrong, not wait times, not whether a procedure is elective or required. Wait times might then matter when framed in terms of their expense: Does waiting too long require more healthcare expense in the future, what does it take from a patient, such as time, or deteriorated condition, etc.

    This may seem "cold," or "wrong" to some of you, but in the end that's what the discussion about healthcare boils down to at this point in time in the USA. Cost and expense, dollars and cents. When we can express the progressive argument for a system such as single-payer (which, BTW, I personally endorse) in comparison to costs and savings against the present system and proposed alternatives, it's much easier to deal with the superlatives and "values" arguments. Let's discuss value first before getting into values.

  • (Show?)

    i dig people like Joe White, who pretend they know the slightest thing about me. it's very entertaining to see just how wrong they are, and how stridently. his paranoia is quite entertaining, too, but not as much as his apparent ignorance: "What are corporations but a group of citizens?"

    holy crap. and what's a rainbow but a magic ladder to the special land where all dreams come true?

    yea, you go, girl.

  • rw (unverified)
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    Hahahah... I did not hear hatred in TA's post. I heard... METAPHOR!!! HURRRRAYYYYYYY!

    And, yes, the incomplete workings-out of injuries bestowed from his insider experience of a particular religionist demographic.

    Wish he would dialog with others of us... to get the breeze of "other" in his nostrils and lose the stench of power and control and fear and all the rest he clearly encountered and could not ultimately hand his soul over to.

    I do not feel he presents himself as the all-bloody-knowing "right" or "wrong" guy so much, Joe.

    Hey wait: was it you who promised to leave the landscape? Or was that just some other toad? I get all you nubbly bubblies so confused.

  • rw (unverified)
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    And dig this Joe: I was eventually FORCED out of being able to stay on my feet as a contract writer wtih a partially detached retina and sprung ribs from that wreck... o yah, you guessed it: slurping up your huge and copious tax dollars to pull it out fifty cents at a time and living on food box food in 1-2 day increments... groaning on my hands and knees at a famous old Portland rooming house owned by one of your own favorites who post here..... hoping nobody would hear my moans of pain as I scrubbed on hands and knees, GRATEFUL for the work, ANY work I could find as the economy crashed IT and then 9-11 around our ears... I raised a beautiful strong young man who utterly eschews welfare consciousness WITYOUT being anti poor people.

    But it's the DOLLARS and CENTS you so sagely speak of that made the decision that I should stop providing fully and completely tho effortfully on my own and become destituted and barely getting through! I job hunted ten hours a day week in and out, put out as many as sixty apps a week and had the welfare assholes pissed at me to NEED to produce those apps and resumes because I really WAS that employee with those skills required to interview to panels of six four and seven times... like that.

    You like that picture JOe? I was not your most functional citizen, god no. But I had a skillset that choked a phalanx of horses and kept going... and the system YOUR dollars and cents forced me into does not comprehend people like me. They expect illiteracy of all kinds, one-page resumes, a desultory and demeaned effort to be reemployed, and satisfaction sitting in brain numbing, useless "job seeker classes" I could have TAUGHT. No thanks.

    And I am gonna tell you dear Joe: it was when I lost my health that I slipped down that slide, clawing at every catch and grabbing at each and every piece of work I could handle, even as the jobs began to shed at a ferocious pace in the PacNW.

    Please, don't, PLEASE don't start in about the "simple" facts of healthcare. Not one little bit of this is simple, and you, sir, are prescribing collateral damage.

    Rant Finished. FEH!

  • siva123 (unverified)
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    All these tips seem to be pretty good, if one starts to implement. Frankly speaking this is a long process to stop hair from failing. But for a immediate results there are different techniques for hair restoration. The only thing we need to do is to find good surgeon for hair loss treatment

  • HC (unverified)
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    We need to understand there are as many people in Canada without a personal physician as there are uninsured in the US. They have free clinics when they need health care and they can sit in the clinic day in and day out for a week or more before they are seen by a doctor.

    Sorry Alijean, such supposed anecdotal "testimony" time and again is shown not to be true. These kinds of accounts are an irrelevant amalgam of very limited actual knowledge, other political agendas of people like you, and outright lying propaganda. The particulars of individual cases are critical to understanding the reality of the Canadian system and talking about it fairly and accurately. By every serious academic study and every careful journalistic report, the Canadian system delivers superior outcomes, better access, and the supposed wait times are very different than the poorly informed would have us believe.

    What does happen in Canada, France, and places that have models closer to what would happen in the US is that EVERYONE has access to good health care, not just the fortunate with good private insurance (or who are eligible for VA care or Medicare, the two most single-payer-like plans in the U.S). Of course, most in the US who argue against such system and who aren't independently wealthy are mainly just arguing out of fear and denial: They can lose their job and their private insurance just like that, but the corrupt interests who lead the argument against single-payer or a public plan don't even have the simple decency to acknowledge that to those whose fear and denial they immorally take advantage of to oppose equitable health insurance reform in the form of a single-payer or public plan.

    So that's right Alijean and the rest of you spreading unsubstantiated claims about national health insurance systems, since a true national health care system where providers are government employees isn't even on the table, I don't give you any personal credibility in the face of the overwhelming facts. You want to make an argument present the facts and case studies from the literature, not "I heard from a friend who has a friend" fear mongering. You leveled the charge: Prove it.

    I've often wondered why the progressive side hasn't made the claim that a single-payer system like Medicare actually is a privatized national health care system as a political strategy: In a national health care system all care costs are paid through taxes, the care facilities are government owned, and the providers are government employees. In a national health insurance system like Canada and HR-676, the care costs are paid through private purchase of government insurance (with tax subsidies), the care facilities are privately owned, and the providers are private businesses.

    Of course, in the NW I know why. On the one hand we have spiteful, ignorant Joe White's who are just sociopathic to some degree. The problem is that we also have a lot of smug "progressives" who reality shows just can't be bothered to educate themselves on the facts, much less be credible advocates for anything but the most banal issues. We've seen that on display in this thread too.

    How many of you who claim to not be happy with our private insurance system, but who smugly tut-tut single-payer and public plan advocates as strident or whatever, have bothered to call Wyden and let him that you won't vote for him unless he gets on board with at least a public-plan option. Or called Merkley to let him know that he'll have to spend the rest of his term winning your vote back if he doesn't back his public statements that he supports a public option with action (something he didn't promise to do on the Ed Schultz show last week)--- like an ironclad promise he will put a hold and work to build a filibuster on any reform plan that doesn't include a public option?

  • Jake Leander (unverified)
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    Joe White wrote:

    What are corporations but a group of citizens?

    Morpheus said:

    The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    "Joe White wrote:

    What are corporations but a group of citizens?"

    Using that definition we can say that members of drug rings and organized crime entities are "but a group of citizens."

  • Alijane (unverified)
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    For what it is worth, I have not political agenda, nor do I wish to lose my home to medical bills. I also don't want to lose a family member because their treatment is too costly for the system.

    Something to balance out the health care system must be done, but I am simply expressing my reservations. I pay dearly for my medical insurance, yet due to my age I have a ten thousand dollars deductibe. Yes, I do wonder why I have no preventative care other than out of my pocket, because I cannot afford the insurance for it, yet my premiums and many others are through the roof to provide other better insurance and care then middle income working people can afford for themselves.

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    Here is another way to look at our health care system(?). Consider that a large percentage of wages are in the $10 to $13 range. Many are even less. Now consider that a brief visit to a doctor or dentist for a more-or-less routine treatment can easily cost $100 to $250. How long would someone working for $10 or less per hour have to work to pay off a $100 medical or dental bill? How about a $200 bill?

  • Chris #12 (unverified)
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    Alijane--let me get this straight: you can't afford decent insurance, yet you don't want to move too fast on health care reform?

  • Chris #12 (unverified)
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    Alijane--let me get this straight--you can't afford decent insurance, but you think we should go slow on health care reform?

  • Chris #12 (unverified)
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    Oops--that whole page 2 of the comments thing messed me up, hopefully, an editor can remove this comment, and one of the two above...

  • Bill Bodden (unverified)
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    "Oops--that whole page 2 of the comments thing messed me up, hopefully, an editor can remove this comment, and one of the two above..."

    I was caught on that page 2 arrangement a couple of times. Perhaps typepad could put a reminder next to "Comments" on page 1 to help resolve the problem.

  • rlw (unverified)
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    Yes: for my seven minutes of gentle prodding and cursory converse - 145.00 out of pocket. I'm looking at the PT and LMT and DC bills for this latest little auto collision -- the DC only gives me ten mins and cursory adjustment, for $120.00 each go; the LMTs and PTs have to give honest labor for that same pay, but every last one of them is GETTING that pay.

    There is no way whatsoever I could have acquired any care at these rates.

    You would be astounded how many Americans are going without care when greatly needed. Just astounded. In midwest and southern states I saw even more of it - worse than here. Wages being much less than here.

  • Alijane (unverified)
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    In my youth, I had a nasty skiing accident, broke some ribs, dislocated my shoulder got a nice ride off of Mt.Hood to Physicians & Surgeons Hospital where I stayed for five days. No insurance, wages at the time a big $3.50 an hour. It took me eighteen months and a second job to pay the doctor and hospital bills. It wasns't fun to have to report to a second job every night after finishing my day job, but to skip out on a debt was not an option and doctors and hospitals worked with people in those days and took payments on account. We didn't have cell phones, Internet and cable in those days, just rent, food and car insurance. Life was simple then!

  • Chris #12 (unverified)
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    Alijane--with all your tales of health insurance woe, don't you think it's time for a new system, one that could take care of everyone, one where you don't have to work a second job for eighteen months to pair for your dislocated shoulder (a bargain by today's standards), a system where you weren't paying "dearly" for insurance with a $10,000 deductible and no preventative care? It's entirely possible. It's called single payer. Most people in this country want it, most doctors in this country want it. You should want it too.

  • Aisha (unverified)
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    Health is wealth! Health problems are seen across the globe while here in America, obesity among children and adult is one of the major health problems. That’s why health care is important in order for us to be healthy. But there are some people that refuse to seek further medication if they fell something bad about their health. With the economy that we have today most of us are having a hard time to meet our ends that’s why some may refuse medication fearing that it would leave a major strain to our budget. Luckily, there are financial aids today like installment loans that could help me in times that I need extra money to cover for my medical bills.

  • HC (unverified)
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    No one should be mistaken, Alijane is clearly just trying to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt against the equitable health care reform we need using a passive-aggressive political propaganda tactic. He or she is not presenting an expository argument that uses evidence to prove a claim for or against the benefits of a single-payer or public plan, just making random negative comments.

  • rlw (unverified)
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    I have returned to this thread repeatedly since yesterday morning to view new comments that are shown in the allcomments page, and no go. What gives with this blog's system? It seems very stuck on stuck for a few weeks at least. I want to follow what others say, not get sucked back into the tired stuff of two days ago, but cannot read new thoughts being posted!

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