I think it's a great idea, but what do we import from Uganda?

Dried bananas? Split peas?

So, let's get on with it and add similar countries, plus those that execute a woman for adultery. That's how many UN members?

How about starting with the 1/4 of your party that take their marching orders from the Holy Father (or you're apostate)? Given his following statements, how can you just sit by?

The Church, obedient to the Lord who founded her and gave to her the sacramental life, celebrates the divine plan of the loving and live-giving union of men and women in the sacrament of marriage. It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behaviour therefore acts immorally.

To chose someone of the same sex for one's sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals, of the Creator's sexual design. Homosexual activity is not a complementary union, able to transmit life; and so it thwarts the call to a life of that form of self-giving which the Gospel says is the essence of Christian living. This does not mean that homosexual persons are not often generous and giving of themselves; but when they engage in homosexual activity they confirm within themselves a disordered sexual inclination which is essentially self-indulgent.

As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one's own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God. The Church, in rejecting erroneous opinions regarding homosexuality, does not limit but rather defends personal freedom and dignity realistically and authentically understood.

...

No authentic pastoral programme will include organizations in which homosexual persons associate with each other without clearly stating that homosexual activity is immoral.

...

From an educative point of view, it is necessary to consider masturbation and other forms of autoeroticism as symptoms of problems much more profound, which provoke sexual tension which the individual seeks to resolve by recourse to such behaviour

...

Finally, a plenary session in 1997 defined all liberal causes as political correctness gone awry. The Church seems to lament the demise of laws like you are discussing.

Tolerance of differences is a necessary virtue in a highly pluralistic society, but it has become absolutized, so that «political correctness» has come to demand extremes of toleration, even public approval, of what had earlier been regarded as deviant, even legally punishable, behaviors - including differences in sexual behaviours, such as premarital sex, divorce and remarriage, homosexuality, etc. The «right to bear arms,» enshrined in the U.S. Constitution at a time when very different cultural, social and technological conditions prevailed, also has been absolutized to the point where legislation to reduce the availability of guns has been difficult to pass, even in the face of rising urban lawlessness, assaults and homicides. Feminism has emphasized the need to change many discriminatory cultural forms which may have been somewhat justifiable in an agricultural society but are clearly dysfunctional and unjust in industrial and post-industrial societies. But the right of women to autonomy has been so absolutized, under the same hegemonic influences, that they have been guaranteed the legal «right» to kill their unborn children for the flimsiest reasons of personal convenience.

How can you lead, morally, when you're taking so many campaign dollars from Catholics?

I think it's great Wyden has taken this step and I encourage him to do more to stop passage of this homicidal bill.

rfd97230, you write: "The Church seems to lament the demise of laws like you are discussing."

"Seems"? I challenge you to find any Catholic-sponsored document of modern time that would encourage the imprisonment or execution of homosexuals.

In fact, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) wrote, "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs."

It's also interesting that you choose to unbold the section on gun control. It 'seems' like this might be something you would support?

Wyden continues to impress me and makes me happy he is my Senatorial representative.

rfd does make some good points. Only this week the Pope was trash talking gays again. Enough with the men in dresses and Prada shoes, who were past-Nazi party members, lecturing about morality!

Has anyone read Letter to a Christian Nation here?

I'm not defending Catholicism wholesale and there are plenty of good arguments in Letter to Christian Nation, The End of Faith, Bill Maher's 'Religulous' and other anti-religion works.

I think it's irresponsible, however, to implicate the Catholic Church as a supporter of homosexual execution. A discussion about its opinion on morality is something different altogether, one that I do not think merits relevance to this post.

Chris, they've (the CChurch) said that GLBT lifestyle, if unchecked "will ultimately lead to the extinction of the species". I mean, are you supposed to accept that, and then not feel motivated to take strong action? Doesn't that pretty much couch it in terms of "it's us or them"? Doesn't that make it OK to talk about capitol punishment?

You have a point, though. We have our own lifestyle crimes. Got a few thousand marijuana seeds in your freezer? That's good enough for a federal execution. Nothing is 100% wrong, and the one tiny bit that I really, really like about it, is that, presumably, it wouldn't just be executing a single perp. Wouldn't our system be better if, when we thought we were justified in taking a life, that we stood by our logic and killed everyone that contributed substantially to the person's ending up on death row? Would at least make people concretely aware that it's not a solution.

You could certainly argue that this bill would not even be considered had Christian imperialism not entered the Ugandan fray, but I'm not confident that current dogmatic arguments against homosexuality link directly to capitol punishment on a state-sponsored scale (at least in modern times).

However, you do make a good point. There are individuals who have used such arguments to warrant attacks against homosexuals and so it's important to confront this flawed logic whenever it rears its ugly head.

Unfortunately, arguments against homosexuality are used as a lightning rod for conservative movements and I think it has as much to do with masculine insecurity on a global scale as it does with religious influence. But! That's a completely different tangent...

My point boils down to a technicality about THIS particular issue and the influence of the Catholic Church, and their relation to Ron Wyden's moral responsibility as a leader.

Thanks for the response.

Wyden is to be complimented for taking some action (for what it might be worth) to oppose anti-gay barbarism in Uganda. This is in marked contrast to his support of the relatively recent slaughter of Palestinian women and children in Gaza by the Israeli Defense(?) Forces during Operation Cast Lead.

The misnamed-'Christian' leaders of this country are trying hard to disguise the fact that their fingerprints and influence are all over this legislation. Please Jesus save us from your un-Christian followers. They really have not been paying attention to what you said and what you are all about.

Yes, typical Wyden. This is the kind of thing that makes people think Wyden is a progressive. Yes, he's very good on gay rights issues and very good on reproductive rights. On more bedrock issues, such as curtailing neoliberal economic policy, or gaining rights for oppressed Arab peoples, or some infringement upon the medical-insurance lobby's power: not so good.

I agree with Bill Bodden. I think Wyden is too much burdened by his own family's history (I believe both parents were survivors of Nazi death camps). This (and lots of AIPAC money) has led him to believe that it's proper that Palestinian civilians be killed with impunity by a top military.

I should say that I agree with the eminent Bill B, that it's cool that he's trying to clean up our mess in the 3rd world.

Posted by: The Unrepentant Liberal | Jan 12, 2010 5:02:39 PM

The misnamed-'Christian' leaders of this country are trying hard to disguise the fact that their fingerprints and influence are all over this legislation. Please Jesus save us from your un-Christian followers. They really have not been paying attention to what you said and what you are all about.

Unfortunately, I really think that started in the first century with Saul of Tarsus, that turned the rabbinical Jeshua ben David into his Jesus marketing plan.

Senator Wyden is one smart fellow. I wish Obama had simply done this on his own. Using economic means has worked on the African continent in the past and I hope it will again. That this evil still persists and thrives in the world is really hard to fathom. Please keep up the pressure Senator.

There has been a lot of mistaken information about Christianity and gay executions. First of all Christ came into this world to save it, not condemn it. Christian organizations like http://www.exodusinternational.org/ who minister to gay people have spoken against the proposed Ugandan law.

The real solution to the gay rights issue is to show that healing, not killing is the way to go. Thousands of people who wanted to leave the homosexual lifestyle have been set free through Exodus. Most gay people feel that they can't change, but through Christ all things are possible!

This brand of Ugandan lunacy is impossible w/ out faith.

"Bill, do you have a source for your claim that Senator Wyden actually supported the slaughter of women and children?

Pretty outrageous claim, if you ask me."

Kari: I had a letter from Wyden's office over his signature in response to a communication from me. The letter only addressed the rockets from Gaza and the problems they created for the Israelis near the border. That was his justification for Israeli actions. Nothing about the enormously disproportionate reprisals against the people of Gaza who could claim lots of provocation with Gaza being described by many human rights and independent observers as a virtual concentration camp under the control of the Israeli Defense (?) forces. (Personally, I think it was unwise for Hamas and others to shoot those rockets, but if I were in their situation I'm not sure what I would have done.)

I didn't ask you, but I'll tell you what is outrageous. The overwhelming majority of elected officials in Congress gave their approval to Operation Cast Lead. There were about 30 or so in the house who either voted against its resolution of support or abstained or voted present. That means over 300 representatives approved (or said they approved) of this barbarism that was found (along with some of Hamas's activities) to be war crimes and crimes against humanity by the commission headed by the respected South African jurist Richard Goldstone - a Jew and a Zionist.

In the senate they didn't have the guts to vote but passed a motion saying the "sense" of the senate was approval.

And what will the American people do in November? They will re-elect the vast majority of these wretches who went along with this slaughter and tolerate the continuing abuses of human rights in Gaza.

Incidentally, were you proud of the leader of your party when he called on Israel's right-wing government to end expansion of settlements in the West Bank and Netanyahu essentially gave him the middle finger and Obama surrendered?

This moral bankruptcy is reminiscent of events when the Jews were being persecuted by the Nazis in the 1930s. In 1938 the SS St. Louis tried to find a safe haven for German Jewish refugees. They were refused entry in the United States and other nations. Some countries accepted a few, but most were returned to Germany where they were eventually placed in cattle cars en route to their deaths in concentration camps. (Google for "ship st louis jewish refugees")

I just happen to be in the process of reading the third volume of Richard J. Evans' trilogy on the Nazis - "The Third Reich at War" By coincidence, I just finished a chapter dealing with the "Christian" churches in Germany and Rome and their reluctance (with very few exceptions) to oppose Nazi policies regarding euthanizing mentally retarded people and gassing of Jews, gypsies and others in concentration camps. Kind of like the indifference many are showing to the Palestinians today.

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Kari Chisholm: have you ever heard Wyden criticize anything Israel has ever done? Other than some innocuous "my travels in the region have shown me that most people on both sides want peace" kind of garbage with which Wyden will reply to constituents?

For a couple of years I've been trying to get Wyden to answer a straightforward question: what, according to international law (the 4th Geneva Conventions and UN res. 242 & 338) is the legal staus of East Jerusalem and the West Bank? In reply, Wyden merely tells me that Hamas wants to destroy Israel. He never even attempts to answer the question!

So let's forget about giving Wyden the benefit of the doubt on this issue, unless you happen to enjoy his song and dance.

"(Personally, I think it was unwise for Hamas and others to shoot those rockets, but if I were in their situation I'm not sure what I would have done.)"

Calling Bono Your Palestinian Gandhis Exist ... in Graves and Prisons

the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) wrote, "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs."

The Catholic Church, along with the Mormon Church, and many evangelical Christian churches does, of course, continue to raise money from parishioners and run nasty political campaigns to selectively erase the basic civil rights of gay and lesbian Americans (and export this unfounded prejudice around the world).

So, in other words, that quote above is full of shite.

And let's not ignore yesterday's decision by most of the Catholic men who sit on the U.S. Supreme Court to prevent televising (or even you-tubing) the current legal effort to overturn California's Catholic-backed Proposition 8...

http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/

Of course, we all know how much Catholics like to hide their unpleasant activities...

Spot on, OB. Those fine sentiments come from an organization that historically has really believed that things like burning at the stake are compassionate acts of love. "Better to enter the kingdom of heaven with one eye than be thrown into Gehena with both eyes". When they say "torture" and "violence", they mean "out of malice". They can do the exact same things, and it's loving, because their motives are different, or so they really believe.

It's also cynical. The Church has mastered mind control, and is sniffing at those more barbaric methods of dealing with unacceptable behavior. My point has been that their motivation is no better. Having a cannon lawyer argue from Aquinas doesn't make the bottom line any less discriminatory.

What can one expect from a State headed by a man that says, "doesn't matter I was a Wehrmacht commander, because my mind was elsewhere"? Same exact logic. Don't look at the effects of our policy being just like the murderers, down deep we think totally different.

"Could you cite the sentence or paragraph from the letter you got from him?"

Kari: I can't locate the letter I received from Wyden. I may have shredded it out of contempt, but I'll keep checking. As I recall his position was one of justifying the Israeli Defense (?) Force actions on the basis of the rockets that came from Palestine. There was no reference to the human rights abuses inflicted by Israel's right-wing government on the Palestinians. As far as I'm concerned justifying the IDF's actions is equivalent to support. If you want to split hairs, plese feel free to do so.

Perhaps, through your connection with Wydens office you could get Josh Kardon to explain on BO what Wyden's position is on Israel's actions - not that he was much help to Hillary Clinton as her Oregon point man.

Kari Chisolm: seems Wyden did publicly express support for Op Cast Lead.

On last Jan. 12th, at NW PDX Temple Beth Israel, there was an event called "Community Solidarity Gathering in Support of Israel."

http://www.jewishreview.org/local/israel-solidarity

The article about this event says that quite a few in the attendant congregation expressed objections to Op Cast Lead. The article also says "Rabbi Schiffman read letters in support of Israel from Gov. Ted Kulongoski and U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden."

Anyway, Kari Chisolm, do you honestly believe Ron Wyden did not support Op Cast Lead- that he did not characterize the whole thing as being a matter of Israeli self-defense? I think you know where Wyden stands- I think you defend him as a Dem incumbent and hope not too many people pay attention to this issue.

"The article about this event says that quite a few in the attendant congregation expressed objections to Op Cast Lead. The article also says "Rabbi Schiffman read letters in support of Israel from Gov. Ted Kulongoski and U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden.""

Again, this is another instance proving people opposed to Israel's policies are not anti-Jewish but are more likely to be operating on principle. Human rights are HUMAN rights and not just rights for certain groups of people and something to be denied to others.

By the same token I have read several articles recently with the theme that the policies of Israel's government will prove eventually to be detrimental to Israel. Same goes for U.S. White House and Congress collaboration.

<h2>I have not heard about Uganda since Iddi Amin (Sp?)</h2>