Nice! Looks like the scales have fallen from the voters' eyes. :-)

From the Cascade Policy Institute: "Supporters of the initiatives were shocked when they discovered that all four initiatives had been voted down, since similar efforts to limit government had been successful just over a year ago."

...In response to the election results, Damascus City Manager Jim Bennett expressed his relief, saying, “I think it’s very gratifying that the citizens have shown the faith in their local government that they did last night.”

Great comment, Betsy.

Sometimes activists get so full of themselves that they forget about political tides. Before 1990, anti-taxers were not regarded as power brokers.

Before Reagan, McCall and Gerald Ford Republicans were treated with respect as the mainstream people they were.

Before the 1984 Presidential primary, the Democratic establishment thought that Mondale establishment would rule politics for some time to come---but then Mondale only got about 30% of the vote as the other 2 (insurgent) candidates got something like 59% and 10% respectively.

Anyone who would say,

"Supporters of the initiatives were shocked when they discovered that all four initiatives had been voted down, since similar efforts to limit government had been successful just over a year ago."

believes "we've always done it that way" always rules the world and registered voters always vote the same way because there are never any new voters.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

What a surprise teabaggers would cotton to Damn Assed Cuss, Or a Gun!

Wonderful news.

Now the progressive planning regime can move forward with the lenghty, costly and endless failure in implementing a new utopian city. All the while pretending it's preferrable to everything else.

In the model of SoWa, The Round, WES and very other central planning debacle and boondoggle Damascus will, eventually, another 15 years at least, follow.

Ask Damascus is run by one guy - Dan Pfagely who seems to be your typical bitter, angry nut job next door. He also wrote all the "pro" statements in the voter handout.

At the last council meeting it was basically 15-1 against his ballot measures by the public commenters. His small band of merry moron teabaggers left half way through.

But what sealed his fate was the well published fact from the local weekly that traced nearly 99% of his money came from out of state.

The voters learned how important it is to understand the consequences of their vote after they passed the last AskDamascus measure and discovered that it did just the opposite of what AskDamascus claimed it did. It didn’t curtail city spending, it lowered the fees typically paid by developers, passing costs of services such as sewer and water on to the taxpayers.

99% out of state? I've fucking had it with this "we'll pay to implement our brain damaged ideas in YOUR back yard". They were warned. We are ready. It's payback time.

Portland VWA will now mobilize. Dan Pfagely and co. can take a big dose of rude, out of state medicine as our hackers, agent provocateurs and corporate plants get to work paying them back in full.

Pass the word (members). Let's have this working by the week-end!

In the model of SoWa, The Round, WES and very other central planning debacle and boondoggle Damascus will, eventually, another 15 years at least, follow.

What a whopper!

Richard, you talk a lot of shit, but do you have the courage to say it to my face? <!--Farmer's Market, Saturday, pick your veg. Or you can just shut the fuck up. You can preach to your fellow SFBs. Motivated to piss all over Dems, just for spite? Rereading your posts over the last year, I think you have a date with a very splintered broom handle and your rectum, if that's fair play to you! Maybe check it out with your fellow d'baggers. I know the one that lives down the block from me won't be sticking his rearranged face into anything soon, and others have been paid back, so ask around about what's going around. You keep coming in here to take a shit and they'll be a full knuckle sandwich in your face's future.

Now name it, meet me (with as many of your cowards as you care to bring) or zip it.-->

[Violent threats removed. -editor.]

Light Rail to Damascus? How many billion$ will this cost to service 10,000 people? But hey, we need to tax and spend our way out of this recession.

"Richard, you talk a lot of shit, but do you have the courage to say it to my face? Farmer's Market, Saturday, pick your veg." - miles

Buwhahahaha - The Pacifist crowd is fighting mad!!

Geez, Miles, chill. The left doesn't need folks spouting violence and threats any more than the right does and you're coming off as a left-wing nutjob. Take a breath.

Miles V,

I'm guessing you're Randy Leonard?

I'm not "Motivated" to piss all over Dems, just for spite" It's your horrific policies and ruin of Oregon I don't like.

FYI Any of you can come out to the monthly Executive Club meeting at the Shilo Inn-Airport on the first Wed. of the month and meet Phagely and many other new friends.

I wouldn't advise any attempts at violence though.

Peace

"It's your horrific policies and ruin of Oregon I don't like."

Then you should move.

"Any of you can come out to the monthly Executive Club"

Why? To discuss defeat? No thanks.

Miles has been upset ever since I used his curtains to clean off my teabags.

I love how he hums "This Land is Your Land" with my tea bags resting on his chin, but I wish he was better at keeping his breakfast down.

Scott, I'm thinking you're Tre Arrow?

Telling people to move is so progressive, isn't it.

Kari:

The anti-light-rail measure lost 51-49.

Bob T:

Kari, so you're celebrating limiting democracy by removing the ability of Damascus residents to vote up or down on whether they want to a part if this?(and there are huge numbers of people who perceive light rail projects to be incredible wastes of money that benefit various Fat Cats and corporations at the expense of the rank and file people progressives claim to care so much about).

Bob Tiernan Portland

Actually Richard, I was just thinking you would be happier living in a small government, limited regulation environment. Like maybe Somalia.

I just want what's best for you.

Pat Ryan:

Well there was an up or down vote to the question of whether Damascus will continue to play within the republican framework as designed by the founders of the republic, or whether they would second guess their elected officials every time they make a decision.

Bob T:

In these cases some communities can be used by others. And Fat Cats laugh all the way to the bank. Considering the price tag for light rail nowadays (closing in on a Quarter Billion per mile!), for flimsy results, I'd want to vote on this as well. Progressives were all for voting on this so long as they were winning. When that changed (in 1998), they changed the rules.

Pat Ryan:

The citizens of Damascus decided by a narrow majority, that they favored the republican style of government.

Bob T:

No. Maybe they just realized that the same results could be achieved at a tiny fraction of the cost by having bus service to the Clack Town Center TC. Service that could start next week, in fact.

Pat Ryan:

What's the name of your party again?

Bob T:

N/A for the past several years. Before that, Libertarian. Why?

Bob Tiernan Portland

Libertarian huh...You know what immediately comes to mind when I hear someone says Libertarian?

The son or daughter of a wealthy doctor, lawyer, or businessman who is socially liberal because they do not want their sexual conquests to be "judged," yet they are fiscally conservative and advocate for far fetched ideas such as toll roads built by US taxpayer dollars because they do not want the "common" man threatening their inheritance or "coming up" to take their spot in the socioeconomic ladder.

For all these so-called "Libertarians," would you be a Libertarian if you did not have Daddy's money and your trust fund to live off of?

Libertarian huh...You know what immediately comes to mind when I hear someone says Libertarian?

Lemme guess: Someone with preconceived notions about people they've never met?

Oh wait a minute, that's more applicable to you.

RyanLeo:

Libertarian huh...You know what immediately comes to mind when I hear someone says Libertarian?

Bob T:

No, but I can guess.

RyanLeo:

The son or daughter of a wealthy doctor, lawyer, or businessman who is socially liberal because they do not want their sexual conquests to be "judged," yet they are fiscally conservative and advocate for far fetched ideas such as toll roads built by US taxpayer dollars because they do not want the "common" man threatening their inheritance or "coming up" to take their spot in the socioeconomic ladder.

Bob T:

There are indeed many such people in this country who fit that description. Doesn't sound like the libertarians I've known for some years. In fact, your last line describes the sentiments that were behind most of the regulations created under the guise of protecting or looking out for the very people you claim to have sympathy for.

RyanLeo:

For all these so-called "Libertarians," would you be a Libertarian if you did not have Daddy's money and your trust fund to live off of?

Bob T:

Well, I have no such thing to live off of (unlike people like leftwing hero Bobby Kennedy, Jr. who gets a very nice fat check every year from grandaddy's trust fund which he pays miniscule taxes on, so that I pay a higher rate of taxes than he and his siblings pay, all while they demand that people pay "their fair share"). And I am still a small "L" libertarian -- I've decided to judge each issue on its own merits.

If you want to discuss an issue on its merits, feel free to do so instead of engaging in stereotypes that reveal your jealousy on the freedom issue.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Bob Tiernan,

I understand, you are coming at it from a philosophical, ideological level and I am just conveying to you from those of my peers whom I know who describe themselves as "Libertarian."

I will not discuss libertarianism at it's philosophical roots as a political ideology that is best summed up as advocating for the most individual freedom. Why? I do not inherently disagree with ideology. In fact, I can see where we need it.

My take on "Libertarians" is basically a real assessment of the background of my peers who refer to their politics as "Libertarian." Take into account I am 25 years old born in 1984. I am part of the Generation Me whom Baby Boomers love to lob grenades at as the most spoiled generation (we learned from the most selfish in my opinion). That is another topic as I do not fit the regular description of a Millennial because I have a full time job working nights for a for-profit corporation in mental health with close to 1000 employees.

Naturally, you are offended by what I wrote. I would not be doing my job commenting if I did not elicit a response. I felt a flame was needed and I was in the mood.

As for "Toll Roads," what is your take on a toll road? Do you agree that a Toll Road can be subsidized with Federal tax dollars, yet still collect a toll that goes to a private organization? Do you agree that toll roads should be built with 100% private funding and 0% public funding in order to retain ethical and philosophical integrity in line with libertarian views?

Bob Tiernan,

how the hell does an inheritance for the son or daughter of privilege help a son or daughter of poverty?

The son or daughter of privilege did not earn their inheritance like their parent(s) earned their wealth beyond having the luck to be born into privilege.

If you want my view, up the Federal inheritance tax to 50% with the tax going straight into the coffers Social Security in order to keep Social Security solvent for the next 7 generations.

Freedom and inheritance are diametrically opposed. If we all have the "freedom" to succeed or fail based on our own merits, then those who are born with a $30k+ trust fund or wealth have one hell of an advantage over everyone else.

Equality in this case is equity. Equity in taking from those who can afford to be taken from in order to ensure a level playing field for meritocracy to truly shine. With inheritance as it is, the privileged cannot truly say that they "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" in the face of the innate financial advantage they were born into.

Consider Donald Trump. Donald Trump would not be where he is today without having the successful father he is to provide the educational background and financial support to take the risks he did.

RyanLeo has done much with those comments to create the situation he disparages. That portrait is absolutely the reverse of the socially conscious "dirty hippies" that I know as Libertarians. Guess which stripe gets heard more, though? And when Dems come out and say, "oh, we all know...", which faction does that encourage? Are we an aberration or just deluded? You defined it in terms of negatives. You can't define a group with negatives. If I'm trying to describe a cow, I could go on forever with, "it doesn't walk on two legs; it isn't a carnivore, etc", without ever giving you the idea of "cow". Otherwise you're left with "Canadian Chauvinism", where they go on and on about how they're not like Americans, but one never hears what they are proud of about being Canadians.

Of course, this is BO, and I over intellectualize. Perhaps I should have simply said: RyanLeo:

Libertarian huh...You know what immediately comes to mind when I hear someone says Libertarian?

Z:

California huh...You know what immediately comes to mind when we Oregonians hear a Californian's ideas about what is wrong about Oregon?

"And when Dems come out and say, "oh, we all know...", which faction does that encourage? "

What is wrong with verbal precision, folks?

Individuals vote. Saying, for instance, "the ____ community" sounds like shorthand at best and jargon at worst.

There was a time when Democrats understood "people power"---grass roots volunteerism has won some impressive victories.

But why should anyone take time out of their busy schedule to volunteer with any cause which uses jargon and doesn't seem interested in what ordinary, everyday folks think?

It is that sort of nonsense which has put me on the verge of registering NAV after the primary.

Zarathustra,

Same can be said for Californians thinking about Oregon.

What the hell do we Californians care for those who live in the West Coast's version of Florida with pine trees? Oh that is right, a few camping trips near Bend and a piss stop as we are driving north to Seattle.

It cuts both ways and since you are carrying this "I only listen to born in Oregon types" attitude, then I will trouble you no longer and allow your circle jerk with like-born to continue.

Fuck an outsider perspective who lived in Oregon for 10 years before moving back to California right?

Of course, this is BO, and I over intellectualize. Perhaps I should have simply said:

Did you miss that bit of context setting or are you trying to prove the point?

RyanLeo:

My take on "Libertarians" is basically a real assessment of the background of my peers who refer to their politics as "Libertarian." Take into account I am 25 years old born in 1984. I am part of the Generation Me whom Baby Boomers love to lob grenades at as the most spoiled generation (we learned from the most selfish in my opinion).

Bob T:

Actually, those under 30 may very well be the most spoiled. Consider how ticked off they get when their I-pod doesn't work. or when their cell-phone doesn't connect within five seconds. Or when a DVD doesn't play. People older than 30 (and particularly older such as late 30s or older) had earlier gotten used to things being slower and may average more patience and understanding. You've been raised in a time when at an early age you've been able to talk with your friends if you could not locate them in the shopping mall, or when you were alone on a bus heading toward a rendezvous point in near Pioneer Square. Or when hiding in the company stock room for a minute during working hours. You may not have known any other way. 30-somethings have, and they and older people are far less likely to say, "This is bullsh*t" when their cell-phones don't connect right away.

So no, those under 30 are the most spoiled. Those under 20 are worse than those 20-30.

None of this has anything to do with selfishness, as you might define it. Self interest is not exactly the same thing. People can be "selfish", as Ayn Rand might define it, but that doesn't equal being a crybaby about anything.

RyanLeo:

That is another topic as I do not fit the regular description of a Millennial because I have a full time job working nights for a for-profit corporation in mental health with close to 1000 employees.

Bob T:

Good for you, although your unsubtle swipe at the term "for-profit" is duly noted. Remember - a "non-profit" can give its officers and staff loads of money and still maintain that definition, so big deal. I really doubt that Paul Newman's food company operates at a loss.

RyanLeo:

Naturally, you are offended by what I wrote.

Bob T:

No - I merely corrected you.

RyanLeo:

I would not be doing my job commenting if I did not elicit a response. I felt a flame was needed and I was in the mood.

Bob T:

In other words, it wasn't a sincere response. Are you capable of being honest if such a response would be your actual view?

RyanLeo:

As for "Toll Roads," what is your take on a toll road?

Bob T:

Would be okay with me if the owners paid for it, and this includes one operated by a state or county or city (although I don't think you're referring to government-owned toll roads). These is one private toll road (expressway) that I know of, in Southern California, and it's popular because users pay for its use specifically and therefore do not over-use it.

RyanLeo:

Do you agree that a Toll Road can be subsidized with Federal tax dollars, yet still collect a toll that goes to a private organization?

Bob T:

Since you used the word "can", the answer is that the government will do this if it wants to but this does not describe a free market toll road (which is what we're talking about). There are many morons out there who facor some sort of hybrid mixed economic model, but it's both unnecessary and mislabeled. What you describe is similar to the sports stadium, sports team idea that fortunately finds no support among actual libertarians or free marketers but is supported by large portions of progressives (no surprise there - it's all part of "infrastructure" and "city pride" they're into, and also provides examples they can point to of the market allegedly "failing to provide what people want" and thus needing huge subsidies in order to work.

RynaLeo:

Do you agree that toll roads should be built with 100% private funding and 0% public funding in order to retain ethical and philosophical integrity in line with libertarian views?

Bob T:

Yup. And don't minimize philosophical views when practical considerations limit opportunities. My instincts are libertarian, but if there's no room for private toll roads (i.e. those lengthy and wide enough and located properly for expressway use in particular) then that's that, and the only thing I then ask is for you to never confuse what we then get with such a thing and to always keep in mind what a government-owned road is.

You might need some new "libertarian" friends. Is one of them Marc Delphine, the LPO candidate for US Senate (mentioned in an earlier article on this blog)? From what I remember of him, when it comes to libertarianism he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, and can't even explain why each one is what it is.

Bob Tiernan Portland

RyanLeo:

how the hell does an inheritance for the son or daughter of privilege help a son or daughter of poverty?

Bob T:

Who said that it would, or does?

RyanLeo:

The son or daughter of privilege did not earn their inheritance like their parent(s) earned their wealth beyond having the luck to be born into privilege.

Bob T:

That is true, but there's another way of looking at it. This falls under the right of people to dispose of their wealth (of whatever size) as they see fit, considering that they and neither you nor Sam Adams owns it. I also reserve the right to have little or no respect for such recipients, which is why I'm not impressed with a single member of the highly overrated Kennedy family. Royalty my ass.

RyanLeo:

If you want my view, up the Federal inheritance tax to 50% with the tax going straight into the coffers Social Security in order to keep Social Security solvent for the next 7 generations.

Bob T:

That doesn't fit in with it being a program in which everyone pays into it based on a formular that prevents it from being a welfare or entitlement or income-redistribution program). This is something that President Obama hopes to do, and which further highlights his ignorance.

RyanLeo:

Freedom and inheritance are diametrically opposed.

Bob T:

No they're not -- you're just repeating gobbledeegook. The alternative, apparently, as you see it, is to have it taken by scmucks (people like John Boehner, Mitch McConnell, Nancy Pelosi Harry Reid and Barak Obama) and have them flush it down the toilet.

If you say that freedom and inheritance are "diametrically opposed" then you are really very ignorant and brainwashed.

Ryan Leo:

If we all have the "freedom" to succeed or fail based on our own merits, then those who are born with a $30k+ trust fund or wealth have one hell of an advantage over everyone else.

Bob T:

What we need is to re-open up opportunities that used to exist here but have disappeared over time because free enterprise haters (progressives, right wingers, New Dealers and other control freaks) eliminated them under the guise of "protecting the people", or "making the market work" and other nonsense. I've cited examples in previous messages, but will mention one again -- the Rev, Craigmiles of Tennessee, a black preacher who started selling discount caskets but who was stopped by the Tennesseee State board that oversees this, telling him that he'd be shut down because he was violating state laws in daring to sell caskets to grieving families (who needed to buy one within 24-48 hours) at a fraction of the price that the "established" casket dealers were getting. The regulations on this business had so many requirements that were either expensive to achieve or had little or anything to do with this that the object of them was to limit competition and therefore protect those already in the business (i.e. the same people who ran the board - surprise! surpise! and Gomer Pyle used to say. People like you, unknowingly and misguided, supported and still support this kind of crap because any move to change the laws are met with cries of "Look out - they're trying to de-regulate, and people will get stuck with toothpick coffins or tinfoil coffins for many thousands of dollars!". Total crap. Fact is that many people who can ill-afford the expense have had to pay this because of ignorance of what was really behind the regulations, and you are guilty of this, too. One can't even discuss taxi cab regulations here in Portland without being labeled some sort of corporate stooge who cares little about poor people or something, when in fact the opposite is true and those who support maintaining the status quo are the ones who are costing poor, working, and retired people more money than they need to pay, and all because of ignorance of the issue. When I testified in Salem in 1999 for a bill that would have opened up the market statewide (by banning counties and municipalities from allowing these rip-offs and and also protecting interested parties from exercising their right to make an honest living), the 13 people who were in favor were people who had no stake in the business other than perhaps one day taking an inexpensive ride on a rainy day, while the 14 or so opponents were mostly government bureaucrats who had a vested interest in the status quo (Metro, PDX licensing guy, Tri-Met idiot), a cab driver who was interested in preventing competition (sadly, he was one of the Ethiopian drivers from Smart Cab who was able to enter the market a few years earlier thanks to pressure from free enterprise people who lobbied to allowed expansion (Cascade Policy Inst helped, but no progressives for sure), after which the Smart Cab guys turned around and became pro-protectionist themselves ("I've got mine, and you can't have yours"), and one handicapped gentleman who was afraid that de-reg would mean no one would ever give him a ride again, proving that he was very ignorant of the dynamics of the business. So there you have it -- scare tactics and lies used to force people to pay more to a cartel, and it's called "freedom" in your book. You really need to get out more. and find libertarian friends who know what they're talking about.

I'll also add the example that had once been covered in the Wall St Journal years ago (but never The Nation) such as the 17 year old black girl in Kansas who'd been making money for college by doing corn-row hair styles for clients (good for her) but who was stopped by the regulatory government which claimed that she needed to go to costly and time-consuming cosmetic classes, none of which had anything at all to do with corn rows (which have been around longer than consmetics, apparently), and surprise! surrise!, the State Board is run by the competition that as usual uses it to limit competition. Now, I'm sure that people like you would fight for her to be allowed to create this little job of hers, but you'd package it as some sort of equal opportunity minority rights thing, which ignores the issue. That doesn't help.

Opportunities for meritocracy and creating one's own niche are denied all the time under the guise of protecting those very people, so taking money from Trump or Kennedy does nothing to change that. What I demand is that they do not get privileges. After all, the Kennedys are not keeping a low-income but entreprenuerial-minded person from starting a two-driver cab company - you are. remember -- most of these types of regulations appeared when those already established started seeing how easily competition could knock them out or at least make them work harder to maintain their positions. They (and government stooges) simply realised that they needed to define such regulations as being needed for "consumer protection", and they'd be sold. The joke is on all of us.

Bob Tiernan Portland

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