Karol, you are, like, so totally busted as an elitist and stuff.

Oof Da! You betcha!

[Fraudulent comment deleted. -editor.]

Actually, Sarah Palin has great appeal to mainstream America. People don't care about grammer; they care about ideas. Palin is the feminists worst nightmare: A woman who is strong, resourceful and feminine. Putting her on the ticket was a master-stroke.

All the hipsters on the cosmopolitan west and east coasts will excoriate her, but here's the real deal: This woman plays in mainstream America. In all the towns and villages that are sick to death of the elitist crap spouted by the liberal elite, Sarah Palin is their girl.

She is Obama's worst nightmare, and we'd better figure out a way to counter her without seeming "better than thou".

If we don't, we are going to lose this election.

Funny. And why do I have to read this detailing her use of pseudoscience and theomania to make policy decisions in the overseas press?

And another unpopular lawsuit after the elections. Biden is smart enough and had the right tact that he should casually ask her during their debate, "and how is the other campaign going"?

I notice there is a comment here by one "Torrid Joe". Someone using this name has posted in other thread recently as well. Yet the "torridjoe" we have all read here forever writes his name differently and has a distinctly different voice. I really, really doubt that "torridjoe" would have written what "Torrid Joe" wrote in this thread about the "liberal elite". I detect a likely fraud.

I could be wrong (it has happened once or twice if I recall), but I think Palin was a good choice - for us Obama voters! She may solidify the conservative base, but I think that only means she makes some red states redder. I was worried that McCain might pick Romney, which would tighten up the race in Michigan and maybe Colorado. With Palin, Michigan is a safer blue, and Florida and Ohio are in play better for Obama.

So lets see what happens after Thursday. I might be disappointed, but I think Palin will come through as a joke to many independent and undecided voters.

BTW:I am barefoot and it is my night to cook. Wife will be home in about 15 minutes.

I also seriously doubt that "torridjoe" would have written "grammer" and "feminists worst nightmare", as did "Torrid Joe".

My vote is plain old trolling, not concern trolling. I will further strongly suggest that "Torrid Joe" is the person called "Larry" in this Blue Oregon thread. Mr. Chisholm: check the IP addresses....

You complain about Sarah Palin's use of mannerisms such as dropping a superflous "like" in a sentence, or dropping a vowel or consonant, yet you have not yet begun to deconstruct the grammatical spaghetti (not to mention the historical surrealism) that frequently comes out of Joe Biden's mouth. I call Fairness Doctrine!

Thomas P: yup. I'm with you. Let's have the full entertainment package. Much more edifying to look at the entire picture before us than to canalize.

Some of the strong women I know are still struggling with not having Hillary on the ticket. I know they are supposed to "get over it", but they haven't. That doesn't mean Palin is the replacement vote, but they are rooting for any woman on any ticket to do well. Like Karol said, others that follow may be judged to her standard.

PS..If it is any comfort Karol I am also in the kitchen cooking without my shoes on, and I don't lIKE wearing pants either. I also liked being corrected by the smart girl in class.

Alistair Cooke, formerly of Masterpiece Theater, wrote a book about six men, one of whom was Adlai Stevenson. According to Cooke, Stevenson winced when he had to make grammatical errors to play down to the "people."

Re Karol's comment about ending a sentence with a preposition: There is a story in a variety of versions about Winston Churchill having a draft of a speech corrected by one of his staff who dared to call him on this infraction. The version I like best has Churchill saying, "This is arrant pedantry up with which I shall not put."

Palin is a disaster, but Biden is no prize either.

Well, seeing as how you mention, I mean it just seems, that, goofy as my brother used to say, like my grandmother sang, it really means, oh and my magazine subscription just ran out, that real women who are feminists, seeing as Russia is so close, can't really focus on such small, and isn't John McCain just the most, and now you've got to stop with all this, so please remember to vote on November 5th.

What if we all spoke like Palin?

If you listen carefully to the speech of the articulate, thoughtful adults you probably spend time with, you may well find it sprinkled with 'like' and similarly informal constructions. It's been decades since 'like' emerged from the Valley, and I think that to use it in a speech is no shame. One of my schoolmates wrote his senior thesis on the syntax of 'like,' arguing that it has an identifiable function, and I'd say her use of it here is consistent with his observations. (Try replacing it with 'perhaps.' Sound different? Yes. Mean something different? Not to my ear.)

I don't find anything objectionable about other aspects of her dialect, either. The only embarrassing thing in this video clip is the content of her answer (non-answer).

If you listen carefully to the speech of the articulate, thoughtful adults you probably spend time with, you may well find it sprinkled with 'like' and similarly informal constructions. It's been decades since 'like' emerged from the Valley, and I think that to use it in a speech is no shame. One of my schoolmates wrote his senior thesis on the syntax of 'like,' arguing that it has an identifiable function, and I'd say her use of it here is consistent with his observations. (Try replacing it with 'perhaps.' Sound different? Yes. Mean something different? Not to my ear.)

I don't find anything objectionable about other aspects of her dialect, either. The only embarrassing thing in this video clip is the content of her answer (non-answer).

Hey you guys, I thought Tina Fey was, like, totally da bomb on Saturday Night Live. She even does, like, Sarah Palin's accent and stuff. But that interview with Katie Couric was so totally, like, boring. I mean, hello! Katie Couric went, like, Governor, can you give me any details and stuff, and then Palin went, like, can I get back to you about that? That was soooo lame. I texted my friend Tiffany and wrote, like, Sarah Palin, I will c u l8r.

Whenever I listen to Palin, I keep hearing "Marge", the sheriff in the film "Fargo", saying, so, I suppose that was your partner in the chipper back there....

A preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with.

Also, when it comes to cliches, avoid them like the plague.

I didn't read your post carefully enough at the end and suggested something you'd already stated. Apologies!

(I do think, though, that even a leader of the free world should be able to talk like a normal person.)

I haven't yet actually heard Palin speak, except for short excerpts. Definitely has camera presence, and a nice voice, if it isn't so grammatically correct. If she can figure out a way to really show that she's got a grasp of the issues and has good ideas about how to deal with them, it won't matter if she speaks pig latin.

Has anyone yet figured out whether or not she catches on/learns things quickly? That's the one quality I would consider to most constitute a threat to Obama. If she's got that, with all the crammin' she's supposedly been getting lately, she might be able to figure out a way to appear well reasoned but still push extremist notions such as 'creation is science'.

I kind of doubt she will though. Someone that has so resigned themselves to some of the more rigid, dogmatic religious based viewpoints out there is probably not going to have the kind of receptivity that's necessary to assimilate new ideas, creating a formulation that could have the appearance of a more moderate view.

It's all part of the plan. Palin is the next figurehead of the Bush Gang. An intelligent, articulate president defending greedy and immoral policy would be not fool the people for long. A bumbling, ungrammatical buffoon like Shrub or Palin can speak forever without saying anything, therefore preserving deniability.

I have a lot of friends and family in Ohio and Florida and many of them are tired of people making fun of George Bush for the way he talks. They see us as snobs when we do this. It makes them more likely to feel the need to come to his defense. Do I agree with it? No, but I think it is something to remember.

Posts like this concern me. Yes, they can be funny and fun for us but are we continuing to turn off the people that I mentioned above. It also takes us off message. We need to spend far more time talking about Sarah Palin's positions on the issues not how she says things. That information is taking far to long to reach the voters in some key states.

A case in point - I was talking to my mom in Ohio. My mom voted for Hilary, my dad a lifelong Republican switched parties to support Obama. Both have little tolerance for making fun of the way Bush speaks. My mom asked me what I thought of Sarah Palin. I said, "Mom, I can't stand her."

"Why?"

"She is anti-woman."

"Why, because she is a Republican?"

"No, mom. She is against abortion even in cases of rape and incest."

"Wow, I hadn't heard that. Why is nobody telling us that?"

That concerns me far more than the grammar that Sarah Palin uses.

Sarah c, I agree. Do not underestimate the power of the anti-elitist message behind poor grammar. This is a rhetorical device--an extremely clever one--that speaks to many people in America. George Bush spoke with garbled sentence constructions, people viewed him in a similar way--as a lightweight who was out of his depth. He was elected in part because many people detest what they perceive to be the bossy, instructive, intellectual approach, and Gore was typecast in that role. Even if people are deeply disenchanted with George Bush, most are not likely to suddenly veer wildly toward intellectual correctness. Anti-elitism works, and if we underestimate the cleverness of this rhetorical strategy, we'll have many more years to make fun of the way someone in power speaks. I don't know about you, but I grew tired of laughing at George Bush's grammatical gaffes right about the time people started coming home in body bags from Iraq. The more we ridicule and take umbrage over issues like poor grammar, the more we perpetuate the out-of-touch elitist image. Refocus, rather than ridicule. Save the teacherly tone for school. We need to be friendly, supportive, compassionate, and HUMBLE advocates. The more we ridicule and view Palin as a lightweight, the greater the risk of seeing her dangerous policies carried out in the White House. I am grateful that I think Joe Biden understands this. Obama does too--this is one of the reasons why being agreeable, friendly, and open-minded in Friday's debate helped him gain ground while grumpy "I am right! I know what I am talking about! I have lots of experience!" Mighty Mouse McCain lost support.

"Has anyone yet figured out whether or not she catches on/learns things quickly?

I've seen no evidence of it so far. To be perfectly frank I think she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. She went to four or five different colleges before getting a journalism degree from a mediocre one. She does okay when she can read a speech from a teleprompter or memorize three or four talking points and repeat them endlessly (whether they're appropriate responses to the questions asked or not) but has shown no ability to think on her feet or demonstrate knowledge about any issue.

"Anti-elitism works"

With some segments of the population, yes. Paul Krugman calls it "the politics of resentment" and the Republicans are masters of it. But with the economy in the tank as it it, I think even the "Reagan Democrats" and "values voters" are starting to think that maybe a candidate's abilities and positions on the issues are more important than whether he prefers Coors or pinot noir.

Of course it's the politics of resentment....

Fascinating to compare this country to, say, France, where NOBODY can achieve high office without first attending certain elite schools....

Sarah Palin has spent nearly her entire life in the isolated Mat-Su Valley of Alaska. I am told even the fundamentalists there are seen as "over the top" and heretical in their views by other fundamentalists. She has a very poor fund of knowledge on national and international issues. As revealed yesterday in the Couric interview she doesn't read, and couldn't reveal a single magazine or newspaper or other periodical she reads. This reveals a cultural isolation that perhaps served her well in populist Alaska but doesn't serve her well on the national scene when we're facing an economic disaster. Additionally her extremist views are going to be held up for further exposure, including her refusal to fund rape examinations for rape victims in Wasilla, ostensibly because it provides emergency contraception for rape victims. Planned Parenthood is now out with 527 Ads highlighting this and connecting it also to McCain's votes in the Senate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq6Y-wgivIE&eurl=http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/01/1474124.aspx

I don't know about 44-year-old women, but it's pretty common for people in their 20s to use like in this manner. I am in my late 20s, have an advanced degree, and catch myself using like in this way all the time, at least in casual speech.

"I detest bad grammar.."

"...I rooted for her a bit, "

You "rooted" for her? HAHAHAHA! Thanks for the laugh. You're a genius.

I think we have to be careful not to underestimate the appeal of Palin's style to a lot of people. It seems to be true that she hasn't been winning many middle-of-the-road voters, and that's fortunate. The folksy style she's cultivating reminds me a lot of Reagan. Recently, Palin's been telling a story about how a teleprompter went awry during a speech, and she went on anyway, because it was so important that the people hear her message. As it turns out, the teleprompter was fine, which has now been well-publicized. Palin's been continuing to tell the story anyway, apparently figuring that the message about her passion and candor will trump the actual facts. This is the kind of thing that Reagan used to do. I think Palin isn't as good at that act, though. (Reagan was a professional actor, after all.)

The most important point, though, is that Palin's a distraction, and a somewhat effective one. Every minute we're talking about her, we're not talking about Obama or McCain. No one is going to base their vote on Palin (or Biden). She also is a device to get us to act haughty and condescending, as Karol has done here (sorry, Karol). Their hope is that we'll take the bait, and repel the average voter.

I think we should ignore Palin. The election isn't going to turn on her.

@Sarah- "No, mom. She is against abortion even in cases of rape and incest." "Wow, I hadn't heard that. Why is nobody telling us that?" That concerns me far more than the grammar that Sarah Palin uses."

That concerns me also, the low information voter. The debate is an opportunity for these extremist positions to become clear. Gwen Ifill should insist on specificity of answers and Joe Biden should focus on her extreme positions so it can be made clear to the public. The veneer is coming apart, and she now has the highest unfavorability ratings of any of the four on the two tickets. But more work needs to be done.

Yes, the folksy style is indeed seductive. McCain was trying, but not succeeding very well, in using it during the recent debate with Obama. The master of the folksy style was of course Ronald Reagan, who answered everything by telling a story, commonly a complete fabrication, but rhetorically and emotionally compelling to many people. Palin is not Reagan, however: Reagan, the professional actor, did not botch his lines.

Sarah makes a valid point. Most people are not particularly articulate and feel insecure as a result. A mediocre leader like Shrub makes them feel better about themselves. This is certainly perverse psychology. Supporting a weak leader to boost one's self esteem is maladaptive.

So, making fun on weak-brained politicians might cause an electoral back-lash, but ignoring their deficiency weakens governance in the long run. It would be better if folks got hair plugs, face lifts and breast implants to make themselves feel better, and then voted for intelligent leaders.

Thanks for the memories....I was arguing with my mother once about the fact she was grounding me for some infraction. At the end of the argument, she responded "you're still grounded and you're grounded an extra day for ending a sentence in a preposition". And no, she wasn't a teacher, just very exacting in how language should be used.

Palin's speech mannerisms and misuse of grammar drive me crazy. Tomorrow night will be a test for me---I'll have the mute button handy.

"no one is going to base their vote on Palin (or Biden)"

Mike, me thinks you are wrong.

Palin's blunders and obvious shallowness present a horrible prospect of her eventually assuming the office of the president, but none of these factors is/are worse than what Biden has already committed. The only defense for Democrats in this case is that they can claim Palin will support McCain in doing worse if he is elected president.

"no one is going to base their vote on Palin (or Biden)"

Mike, me thinks you are wrong.

I hope I am wrong, but historically, it's been true.

Mike, historically it has been true. But these are certainly times when new history is being made. I would not rely on past occurrences for guidance here. That goes for the election, the stock market, and the housing market. There has not been a VP pick that was such a phenomenon in any of the history we have lived through. The Quail pick doesn't even come close to this left field selection. There are folks out there who sound and talk like Palin, and see her as the person who they can best identify with in this time of political corruption and mistrust. I'm not saying she can win McCain the election alone, only that we should not underestimate her ability to bring voters toward her that were previously on the fence. Biden will have to do a better than average job tomorrow night.

Bill R:

If my mom is a low information voter then so is around 95% of the electorate. She reads the Columbus Dispatch without fail daily and watches both morning and evening news. The problem is not that people are not paying attention, the problem is that we continue to talk about the wrong things. We also let the media get away with it. Instead of discussing Palin's speech patterns we need to discuss her stance on issues. We also need to bring McCain back into the conversation.

If Biden takes serious swipes at Palin, he'll be called a misogynist bully who mistreats women.

but...

If Biden does NOT press Palin, he'll be called condescending, patronizing, and a misogynist who thinks women are not up to the job of being VP.

Look, folks, the GOP flacks, the PUMAs, the unreconstructed Obama-haters have already got their scripts prepared.

Karol, as a women of color myself let me axe you how you got so good at yours gramer?

Biden will do well simply by highlighting the extremist positions of Palin and McCain. They are birds of a feather. I think we've had enough hand-wringing over Palin.

-Overturn Roe v. Wade, Anti-Choice

-Tax employer provided healthcare benefits

-Privatize Soc. Sec. by turning it over to Wall St.

-Bombing Iran as first choice.

-Permanent bases in Iraq

-Opposed to universal health care

-Record of opposing govt. oversight of financial markets

For those who think Palin is still popular. 51% think she's unqualified. Her negatives outweigh positives. http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/01/pew_research_obama_surges_in_national_survey.html

Rough, but truthful:

Mad Dog Palin

I have to say that Katy Couric as a female anchor has been in a unique position to do a public service and ferret out the policy positions and the thinking, or lack of it, by Sarah Palin. She has rendered an excellent public service. This evening's interviews, asking both Biden and Palin about Supreme Court decisions gets right down to it. Palin becomes literally speechless. http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/eveningnews/main3420.shtml

"and also, in regard to, by which, having the means to" How the woman abuses prepositions!

The Right wants "English only" laws in this country and then mangle it themselves.

"Hey you guys, I thought Tina Fey was, like, totally da bomb on Saturday Night Live. She even does, like, Sarah Palin's accent and stuff. But that interview with Katie Couric was so totally, like, boring. I mean, hello! Katie Couric went, like, Governor, can you give me any details and stuff, and then Palin went, like, can I get back to you about that? That was soooo lame. I texted my friend Tiffany and wrote, like, Sarah Palin, I will c u l8r."

I know you were attempting to defend Palin with this little rant, but, sadly, you still make far more sense than she did in her responses to Charlie Gibson or Katie Couric. Palin just mashes together totally unrelated trite "catchphrases," that don't connect, lead anywhere, or make sense. She is deliberately spouting "phrases to nowhere" to keep from revealing her ignorance and small-mindedness.

It took me awhile to figure out where I'd heard such eloquence before the Couric interview. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

It took me awhile to figure out where I'd heard such eloquence before the Couric interview. . .