A Day of Mourning and Anger...

Kristin Teigen

Despite President Obama's recent call for a "fair-minded" debate in the continuing national struggle over abortion, those on the Far Right have once again resorted to horrific violence and terror.

This morning, Dr. George Tiller, the Medical Director of Women's Health Care Services in Wichita, Kansas, was shot and killed as he entered his church to worship. His wife, Jeanne, was sitting in the choir as her husband was killed. In 1993, Tiller had been shot in both arms by an anti-abortion zealot, Rachel Shannon More, and in 1985, his clinic was bombed.

Dr. Tiller, a former member of the United States Navy, a husband, and a father of his adopted nephew, was one of the few doctors in the nation who would provide legal and safe late term abortions to women facing "serious or lethal health problems." In providing those abortions, Tiller's clinic would compassionately provide counseling for the parents and funeral services for the fetus.

Dr. Tiller is the eighth doctor to be killed for ensuring that women are given safe and appropriate access to an abortion.

This act of terrorism follows a week of base and disgusting attacks on Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor. Instead of a constructive discussion of her qualifications and the future of the Court, we get to listen to G. Gordon Liddy and Rush Limbaugh impale her in what ways that can only be described as primitive and sordid.

So, yes, we should all approach issues like abortion and judicial nominations from a "fair-minded" place.

But for those on the other side, when, I ask, will "fair-minded" ever be possible?

UPDATE: Since writing this, I've learned that Dr. Tiller was the father of not one, but four children.

Comments

  • Al (unverified)
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    Kansas doctor George Tiller killed today! WICHITA, Kansas - Media reports say that abortion provider Dr. George Tiller has been shot and killed at his Wichita church. Tiller has been among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortion. His clinic has repeatedly been the site of protests for about two decades. He was acquitted in March of misdemeanor charges stemming from procedures he performed, but moments after the verdict the state’s medical board announced it was investigating allegations against him that are nearly identical to those the jury had rejected. The video from the scene:Dr. George Tiller-video

  • John Scott (unverified)
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    Horrific violence? Yes, aborting babies because they have three arms instead of two is horrific violence. Killing a mass murderer to prevent more murders is justice served.

  • Dan Lahood (unverified)
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    No, not "those" on the right, a lone gunman, you'll stoop very low to make political points. Despicable.

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    Dan,

    If this was the first case of violence, I would have used "one" -- it was one of many, many, many.

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    And to suggest that a woman would abort a baby for "three arms" is just plain disgusting falsehood.

  • Watching (unverified)
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    Sounds like John Scott is a big advocate of vigilante TERRORIST justice, and a non-believer in a woman's right to her own life when a fetus endangers hers. Good job, man. Christ would've thought so highly of you.

  • mp97303 (unverified)
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    I wonder if the murderer was on his way TO church or heading home FROM church.

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    The link of "serious or lethal health problems" led to Dr. Tiller's clinic site -- it's apparently down right now..I'll try to fix it when it's back up.

  • (Show?)

    I'm curious if this act of domestic terrorism will yield an outcry from those who support torture to waterboard the suspect...

    Excusing the committing of a murder to justify a your political and religious beliefs makes you the Taliban, John Scott. Congratulations.

  • mp97303 (unverified)
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    If this is what being a "good Christian" entails, I think I'll pass.

    However, then there’s this statement from the founder of Operation Rescue, Randall Terry:

    George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller’s killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder.

  • mp97303 (unverified)
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    Carla,

    I fully expect Rush to call for the terrorist, when caught, to be tortured to find out all he knows about this and any info he has about other members of his cell. The safety of America depends on it.

  • (Show?)

    mp97303..if you keep agreeing with me like this, pretty soon you're going to have to start calling yourself a "librul".

    Heh.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    Tiller had been previously shot and wounded by one of these "pro-life" maniacs, and his clinic firebombed. Serial terrorism, folks, and there are always folks willing to justify it, as higher up in this thread.

    Bring in the FBI. Should be very interesting to find out if the murderer was indeed a lone wolf. After all, there is a history of these anti-abortion terrorists being given aid and comfort by others, Eric Rudolph being only the most obvious example.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    "Mainstream" media refer to Tiller as an "abortion doctor". Interesting code. I always thought that what he did was provide medical care for women.

  • mp97303 (unverified)
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    The suspected terrorist is in custody. Way to go law enforcement.

    Now, will the FBI and Homeland Security put his church under surveillance as well. Who knows how many of them are terrorists as well.

  • mp97303 (unverified)
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    Carla

    Sometimes a "librul" Sometimes a "conservative" Always "independent"

  • Shauna Ballo (unverified)
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    Dr. Tiller was one of the kindest and bravest men I've ever met. He came into his practice somewhat accidentally because there was no where else for women and girls to turn in his community. He was dedicated to the belief that women could not be truly equal members of society as long as others can control if, when and how they had children. I was honored to introduce him at a fundraiser when I was about 7 months pregnant and he was genuinely interested in chatting about my pregnancy and asked my husband and I to send him pictures once she was born. I'm sad my daughter will not get to meet him.

    Dr. Tiller was a hero that too many in the choice community allowed to become marginalized and tried to distance themselves from. While late-term abortions are seen as the rallying point for anti-choice activists, and unfortunately make even some pro-choice voters and candidates 'squeamish,' I believe access to late term abortions to be one of the most important reproductive freedoms. Dr. Tiller was the place of last resort for children who were molested but afraid to admit they were pregnant until it was too late to receive a legal abortion in their state. He was the place of last resort for pregnant couples who tragically discovered terminal complications late in their pregnancy but were unable to access "medically necessary terminations" in their own state.

    I know a Kansas couple who had to terminate, due to an extreme medical complication, a pregnancy which they had planned and hoped for. Even though the termination was medically necessary, they were surprised that they had to go to Dr. Tiller's clinic because he was the only provider in the state willing to perform the procedure. Anti-choice laws and murderous vigilantes have frightened hospitals away from providing services that were once not even considered controversial. No one simply decides spur of the moment to have a late term abortion as a form of birth control. That just doesn't happen, and even if it did, his clinic would not perform the procedure.

    The world lost a great man today.

  • Dale (unverified)
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    Obama views abortion as population control..All health care plans will cover abortion..If this bill is passed it will remove all restrictions on abortions in all 50 states..A baby could be killed up to the moment of birth for any reason or for no reason at all... Clinton signed into law and became legal in 1993 to CANVNIBALIZE and COMMERCIALIZE the tiny body's of murdered babies.. Any organs desired must be taken while the baby is alive

    Obama says all Health Care Plans Will cover Abortion On Demand Which is better known as JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE

    George is just one of many of has killed thousand's of babies..now he will answer to a higher power

  • mp97303 (unverified)
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    Percent of population who id's as GOP...21......19......18....... how low does it go.

    Dale will have his mind blown when he finds out that Dr. Tiller will go to heaven and the murderer ends up in hell.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    Say "Dale", I'll first note the nearly total incoherence of your comments. "If this bill is passed it will remove all restrictions on abortions in all 50 states." Which bill? There IS NO SUCH THING. Lots of discussions and negotiations between the executive and Congress, yes; a prepared piece of legislation, no. And BTW the US Supreme Court has several times now, since Roe v. Wade was decided, upheld the authority of states to place certain restrictions on abortion. Your hypothetical piece of legislation cannot over-ride the authority of individual states. I don't know where you're gleaning your talking points; perhaps some place like Operation Rescue?

    I'm also wondering: what exactly is this higher power that you allude to? Are you in contact with this higher power? Has this power communicated to you its preferences? How do I contact this higher power?

  • Bob Tiernan (unverified)
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    joe dan walls:

    After all, there is a history of these anti-abortion terrorists being given aid and comfort by others, Eric Rudolph being only the most obvious example

    Bob T:

    But hardly as widespread as you might think, comparing us to nations dominated by another religion. Well heck, there were so many safehouses for Rudolph to stay in that he was evenyually caught dumpster diving for something to eat, and couldn't even find a place to shave and bathe. And this new murderer, like the one in Florida a few years back, can easily be found guilty and sentenced to death by an all-Christian jury and the execution approved by a Christian governor. Other than that....

    Bob Tiernan Portland

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    As somewhat of an aside, the recent opinion poll about Americans' attitudes towards abortion--the one that the Randall Terrys of the world have been wetting themselves about--actually yielded this result, to within a few percentage points:

    25% of respondents favored a complete ban on abortion. 50% favored availability of abortion with some restrictions. 25% favored abortion on demand.

    This range of attitudes has been pretty stable over the years.

    The only ways "forward" to a complete ban on abortion would seem to be a coup d'etat by the Randall Terrys of the world, or terrorism by the same folks. The latter path has been the chosen one so far.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    Tiernan, first random link I found about "Christian" terrorist cells connected to attacks against women's health centers....

    Go to the website of the Southern Poverty Law Center for much, much more.

    But evidently you don't think "Christian" terrorism is a problem....

  • Ron Hager (unverified)
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    I believe that when the next murder by an anti-abortionist occurs, John Scott should be convicted of abetting that murder.

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    Forcing women to have children is not defensible. The US Supreme Court ruled 26 years ago that abortion is legal. The moral question is whether another's morality be forced upon another person by an accident of their biology. For the John Scott and Dales of the world, your worldview is women must be victims of their biology.

  • (Show?)

    John Scott wrote: "Killing a mass murderer to prevent more murders is justice served."

    All of which proves that ignorance prevails among the followers of Rush Limbaugh et ilk. Murder is deliberate killing WITH MALICE AFORETHOUGHT. Whatever other inanities might be said about abortion doctors, malice is not one of them. They are NOT murderers. But ignorance never stopped those religious fanatics who do practice murder and think that Jesus supports it or that the pracice serves justice.

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    Nothing shows the commitment to the sacred sanctity of life like cold-blooded murder at a church.

  • Kurt Chapman (unverified)
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    I'm a man, so my views don't carry that much weight in this discussion. However, I do not believe that abortion is right for me and my family. I believe that the government sould just stay out of it - completely. An abortion should be a decision made between the woman carrying the child, the one who has been identified as the father, competent medical providers and spiritual guidance if requested. That's just me.

    That said, the murder of a doctor merely becaue they provide abortions is something that can not be condoned or accepted. This is a work of domestic terrorism just like environmental terrorism. Religious fundamentalism resulting in these acts must be condemned by the conservatives who want a rule of law in our country.

    Kristen, I see no reason to include a polemic about some comments made about Sotomayor this week. The murder of the doctor is in no way connected to the SUpreme Court nominee.

  • Buckman Res (unverified)
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    ...those on the Far Right have once again resorted to horrific violence and terror.

    It’s always sad to see the political discussion around an important subject like abortion get hijacked by partisans when a tragic event by a disturbed mind takes place.

    All they succeed at is highlighting the intellectual failure of their own pro-choice argument when they try to link the actions of one deranged mind to everyone who holds an anti-abortion position.

    Unfortunately this has happened before here on BO and I’m sure it won’t be the last time.

  • mamabigdog (unverified)
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    Just look at all these domestic terrorist apologists cropping up here- John Scott, Dale and Buckman Res. All of you, content to believe that these murderers were not groomed and and encouraged by your support of Operation Rescue and other anti-choice groups. You accept today's act as a one-off event, justified in your own minds, rather than the act of domestic terrorism that it is.

    Let's watch more of these apologists roll in here, just like their buddies as Faux News, making it safe and OK for them to impose their beliefs (religious or not) on the rest of us. The rest of us want to actually reduce the number of abortions that happen, and for the ones that do happen, keep them safe, legal and rare.

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    As long as there are unwanted pregnancies, there will be abortions regardless of the law. Strong pro-life former Surgeon General C. Everett Coop knew this to be true and made this point repeatedly.

    I invite people to ignore the standard polarized divisions and instead unite to reduce unwanted pregnancies with proven strategies: sex education and making available free and safe contraception including the "morning after pill", which, despite many claims, is no more an "abortion pill" than any standard birth control pill.

  • Joe Hill (unverified)
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    The far Christian right, an important and integral part of the Republican coalition since the Reagan days, is responsible for creating this climate that led to today's murder. I hope and expect America will make the Republican party pay a dear political price for legitimizing the extreme evangelical right.

    Again, however, the problem is not with the Republicans and the conservative right in general . . . they are who they are, and nothing can be done about that. The problem is with the Democrats.

    There simply is no analogue in the Democratic coalition to today's bizarro wingnut right. As much as the Republicans like to yelp about left wing media bias, just look at who gets to speak for which political points of views. There is no left in our country that is allowed to appear in public.

    Thus, we aren't going to get the George Tiller Freedom of Choice Act rolled out next week, with strengthened provisions against domestic terrorism against health workers. We aren't going to get a law that prohibits those who are targeted for domestic terrorism investigation under these provisions from owning firearms. We aren't going to get a law that simply clarifies a woman's freedom to choose her own reproductive destiny.

    Too bad, that. Wish we had a party.

  • Old Ducker (unverified)
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    Not to weigh into this but I'm curious...what does the community here think of "propaganda by deed" into which category this murder falls (unless the killer had personal rather than political reasons)?

    Other examples of this: a) Draft resisting b) Tax protest (Irwin Schiff being the prime example) c) Monkeywrenching d) suicide bombing

    A side but related issue is Jury Nullification. While very few in the US support suicide bombing, many oppose abortion (especially late-term) and if on a jury would be presumably inclined to rule innocent, regardless of the law...

  • Old Ducker (unverified)
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    edit: should have wrote "facts" instead of "law" on that last sentence.

  • fbear (unverified)
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    This is a work of domestic terrorism just like environmental terrorism.

    I call bullshit.

    I'm sorry, but I'm unaware of any cases of environmentalists murdering their political opponents. What is called "environmental terrorism" is usually more accurately called "vandalism" or "sabotage".

    No, this is an act of domestic terrorism like those of Paul Hill, Michael Griffin, Eric Rudolph, John Salvi, James Kopp, Donald Cooper, Shelley Shannon, Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins, Matin Uphoff, David McMenemy, Paul Evans, Patricia Hughes, Jeremy Dunahoe, Matthew Derosia, Chad Altman, and Sergio Baca.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    The toll of recent domestic terrorism by the so-called pro-life movement, copied from another source:

    "All told, according to statistics provided by the National Abortion Federation and not including this morning's murder, since 1977, there have been seven murders, 17 attempted murders, 41 bombings, 175 arsons, 96 attempted bombings or arsons, 390 invasions, 1400 cases of vandalism, 1993 cases of trespassing, 100 butyric acid attacks, 659 anthrax threats, 179 cases of assault and battery, 406 death threats, four kidnappings, 151 burglaries, and 525 cases of stalking specifically directed at clinics, their workers, or their volunteers in the US and Canada. That's over 6,100 cases of terrorist activity by the "pro-life" movement. And that's just what was reported -- the actual numbers are probably much higher."

  • (Show?)

    Kurt,

    I included the anti-Sotomayor rhetoric to make a point...wherever you turn, the Far Right is not engaging in tactics or talking points with which any reasonable person can engage...once they begin being fair-minded, we can chat...

  • fbear (unverified)
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    Statement from US Attorney General Eric Holder:

    "The murder of Doctor George Tiller is an abhorrent act of violence, and his family is in our thoughts and prayers at this tragic moment. Federal law enforcement is coordinating with local law enforcement officials in Kansas on the investigation of this crime, and I have directed the United States Marshals Service to offer protection to other appropriate people and facilities around the nation. The Department of Justice will work to bring the perpetrator of this crime to justice. As a precautionary measure, we will also take appropriate steps to help prevent any related acts of violence from occurring."

  • Joe Hill (unverified)
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    How nice to get to talk about anarchist philosophy!

    As for propaganda by the deed, I think that even Lucy Parsons and Johann Most would have to admit today that it is counterproductive and worse than useless. If it was ever a good tactic (I'm agnostic on the idea, although yesterday was the anniversary of the fall of the Paris Commune in 1871 - I think you could make a good case for that!), it's not now.

    In the 1870s and 1880s (until about the Haymarket event), there was still the communal memory of a city with lots and lots of newspapers. New York, if I remember correctly, in the 1850s had about 600 daily or weekly newspapers in all kinds of languages. Then after the Civil War the technology to make papers became more expensive - bigger runs became more profitable - and niche papers began to die out, the total number of papers began to go down. Thus, propaganda by the deed meant something different in a situation when the interpretation of the deed could be more quickly and more directly controlled by workers. By the way, did you know that by the time of Haymarket, there were anarchist cards, the way there are baseball and basketball cards today? Very cool.

    As Heidegger notes, interpretation precedes meaning (another reason why the original intent guys are so whack), and now and more and more effectively the interpretation of events is heavily controlled by the profit-seeking media. Even though there has been a lot of stuff published later, still Chomsky and Herman's Manufacturing Consent describes the filters by which this happens pretty accurately. Of course things are much more concentrated now than was described in 1988.

    Interesting political side note, not meaning to take away from the human tragedy of Dr. Tillman's senseless murder. I hope others take up his work.

    I think the Republican Party is about to find out that they are not going to be able to distance themselves from the interpretation of this event. It will become conflated with the Sonia Sotomayor's nomination to the SCOTUS, and it will reinforce preexisting types that the Republicans themselves tried to manufacture and control. I think they have sown the wind, and now they will reap the whirlwind. Perhaps.

  • ben (unverified)
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    ...As I write this, it seems that half of the Kansas Twitterverse is attending vigils.

    There are two issues extensively reported in the media here, that yet seem to have earned little national attention:

    ...Tiller's contributions to the Kansas Democratic Party, over which local conservatives raised howls of protest; and

    ...The (ahem) intense attention given Tiller and his clinic by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, records of which Kline attempted to retain when he was voted out of office in the 2006 election.

    The whole incident makes me sick; I'm struggling to find any good actors at all in this whole mess.

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    It’s always sad to see the political discussion around an important subject like abortion get hijacked by partisans when a tragic event by a disturbed mind takes place.

    Today's murder of Dr. Tiller is indeed tragic. Whether the person who committed this crime is the victim of a "disturbed mind" remains to be seen. Unless you consider Timothy McVeigh and those who flew airplanes into buildings on 9/11 "disturbed minds", I suppose. But that doesn't make the act less political.

    It's a political murder in which some who say they are "pro-life" are cheering. This idea that we should all pretend that we have to take the politics out of an inherently political act is ludicrous.

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    "It’s always sad to see the political discussion around an important subject like abortion get hijacked by partisans when a tragic event by a disturbed mind takes place."

    What's truly sad is that a woman's choice to make informed decisions about her health is turned political. What's sad is that a doctor who attempts to help women LIVE is subjected him to harassment, violence and ultimately death.

    What's sad is that even one person sees that the murder of this doctor is not political.

  • Brother Donald (unverified)
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    comment deleted out of respect for the Tiller family -- kt

  • Elaine (unverified)
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    This is very sad.

    Why do we even have to go through this again? Abortion is legal. Killing this doctor was not. Our laws are clear and there is no comparison. No amount of bullying or fact-twisting will change or justify this. Whether intended or not, the act of the alleged murderer, now apparently in custody, will only work against anti-abortionists' stated goal. Yet, one has to wonder how many of these people are attracted to this faction due to its violent, misogynistic tendencies as evidenced by some of the comments here.

  • murrayoperi (unverified)
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    Answer me this: if the Bush administration was still in office would they order the torture of Dr. George Tiller's suspected terrorist assassin to find out if another OB/GYN is going to be murdered or if another family planning clinic is going to be bombed or if another Timothy McVeigh domestic terrorist-style plot is in the works in the near future? Would they hold the suspected terrorist without counsel for an indefinite period of time? Would they spirit him away to a black site in Eastern Europe? What would Cheney do?

  • murrayoperi (unverified)
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    Good to see the trolls staying classy!

  • John Scott (unverified)
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    Sounds like John Scott is a big advocate of vigilante TERRORIST justice

    When the government fails to protect innocent human beings from murder - whether they be Jews, Blacks, gays - then yes, I support vigilante justice.

    and a non-believer in a woman's right to her own life when a fetus endangers hers.

    There you would be wrong. I believe a woman has a right to abortion when the pregnancy threatens her life or health. You obviously haven't done much research on Tiller. A good part of his practice was aborting children with abnormalities or "birth defects". He also aborted in cases where both the mother and the baby were healthy.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    The suspect being held has a long history of involvement with extreme-right militia-like organizations as well as, say, Operation Rescue. Look at DailyKos, for example. So of course the wingnuts will insist the guy is a lone wolf and not possibly a reflection of their hate-mongering.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    John Scott sez: "There you would be wrong. I believe a woman has a right to abortion when the pregnancy threatens her life or health."

    And of course any woman should defer to John Scott's Infallible Judgment as to when her life or health is at risk....

  • John Scott (unverified)
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    And of course any woman should defer to John Scott's Infallible Judgment as to when her life or health is at risk....

    Um, no. Doctors do that just fine.

    Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers (a trade association of abortion providers), told the New York Times (February 26, 1997): "In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along."

    The late term abortion industry admits it. Why would you deny it? Willful ignorance?

  • LT (unverified)
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    Years ago, the famous mother of a child born with a birth defect wrote an essay about the experience (and all the time spent in hospitals after the baby was born) as an answer to some of the anti-abortion "they kill their kids" rhetoric. It was very powerful. It ended something like "I've been asked if I became pregnant again and the birth defect was again present, whether I would consider terminating the pregnancy knowing what I know now. I answer that the decision would be discussed with my family and my doctor, and it is no one else's business".

    Are there really people in this country who believe it IS their business because their lives are so empty they must control the lives of others?

    John Scott--were you there at the doctor's workplace? Do you know the dates and medical histories that prove, " He also aborted in cases where both the mother and the baby were healthy. " Or is this all hearsay?

    The violence and the strong language hasn't worked after decades of trying, but it is OK to kill someone in the foyer of a church?

    The Bible I read (and yes, I have read the entire New Testament) doesn't say killing someone in a church because you don't like what he is doing is what Jesus would have sanctioned.

    You may think people here who are outraged don't matter because all good people agree with you that killing any doctor who does any medical procedure you don't like is moral. If a woman dies in childbirth is that OK because at least she didn't have an abortion?

    I'll bet you loved Ceauşescu's government in Rumania. People performing abortions were jailed. There were families who couldn't feed all their kids, there were overflowing orphanages with malnourished kids, but they had no abortions.

    It was a dictatorship. He was deposed 20 years ago.

    Quit trying to excuse the shooting. A church foyer should be a place of peace. Had a small child or a pregnant woman been hit with a stray bullet, would that have been OK as long as Tiller was killed? Do you really think the parishoners of that church will become active members of Right to Life or some other such group after the shooting? More likely, there will be a common ground movement among those on all sides of the issue who don't believe violence solves anything. It has happened in other communities.

    Apparently, you don't believe in the Beatitude Blessed are the peacemakers. If the suspect is found guilty of murder, would you believe the death penalty goes against "thou shalt not kill"?

  • Someone smarter than any liberal (unverified)
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    Good ridance to this murderer. Hate to see what he's going through in hell right now. How ironic that he got his due in church, trying to prove he was one with God.

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    As Kristen says, a day of sadness and mourning and anger. We should look out for ways to support Dr. Till's family and his church community.

    At the link fbear provides, it is interesting to note that all of the listed murders and attempted murders before today took place in the Clinton administration.

    Extravagent and extreme rhetoric, especially that associates political enemies with violence or violent movements (e.g. liberals are socialist fascists) licenses individuals who may consider violence to act more easily on such considerations.

  • noneandertals (unverified)
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    The sub-species that resonates with the present day "conservative" message should be eliminated from the human gene pool. For the elevation the human race, it is vitally important to identify the genetic signature of this sub-species and take steps to limit or prevent its propagation. Hey wingnuts, it only costs a few thousand dollars for a full genome sequencing, and not much more for a disk farm large enough, through brute-force comparison techniques, to find your common abnormality. It is only a matter of time before the essence of what you are becomes your worst enemy. Be very afraid! We nuts on the left like to do science experiments instead of shooting guns. (Note to FBI, just kidding, sort of)

  • Das Grauen (unverified)
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    It has to be noted that in other nations with strong christian ethics, there have been heated debates about the stance towards abortion, too. But in which other nation did this ever lead to anti-abortion terrorism? Looks like this is mostly restricted to the US, with only singular cases happening in Australia and Canada, while its totally unheard of in Europe. This is a shame for the US, and its about time authorities and lawmakers concentrate on this line of terrorism. The first ammendment can't be an excuse for letting hate speech and even the publishing of informations for terrorists happen. Terrorism is terrorism, and anti-abortion fanatics shouldn't have more rights than Al Quaeda nutcases!

    So, don't simply mourn the death of Dr. Tiller - may god care for his soul and for the family suffering under this horrible act - but also stand up for a determined investigation and prosecution of this kind of terrorism! That's the necessary consequence of this dastard act of murder, and of uttermost importance in order to prevent follow ups. Much too long authorities have turned a blind eye towards this violence from "christian" fanatics, and their enablers, like Operation Rescue. Enough already!

  • Das Grauen (unverified)
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    "it is interesting to note that all of the listed murders and attempted murders before today took place in the Clinton administration" Why is this interesting? What do you want to say, that the Clinton administration was as bad as the Obama administration?

    This is total nonsense. The reason for anti-abortion terrorism starting in 1993 is most probably the 1992 Supreme Court case of Planned Parenthood vs. Casey, which went even a bit further than Roe v. Wade, and infuriated "christian" anti abortion fanatics. This has nothing to do with the administration.

  • John Scott (unverified)
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    Nobody should defer to my judgment. That's what doctors are for.

    When even the abortion industry spokesmen like Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, say that the majority of partial birth abortions are performed on an elective basis, on healthy mothers and healthy children, then your ignorance of that fact can only be deemed willful.

  • Das Grauen (unverified)
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    BlueOregon admins, pls alert the authorities about "John Scott" advocating the killing of "mass murderers", and give them all available informations to investigate this (IP, email address). In this context, it is clear that he supports murdering of abortion supporters and medicals like Dr. Tiller. This is support of terrorist acts, and establishs a probability that Mr. "Scott" also supports those terrorists in a more direct way. No false concerns about the first ammendment, pls, let the authorities care for the rights of Mr. "Scott". Turning a blind eye towards these hatemongerers would make you an accomplice. Zero tolerance from now on!

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    Blaming all pro-lifers for this makes about as much sense as blaming all Muslims for 9/11.

    Do you understand the difference between use and misuse, my liberal friends?

    C'mon blue people turn off the TV set and think for yourselves.

  • reseller hosting (unverified)
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    First of all let me say, our thoughts are with his family. If all these legal late term abortion doctors are being killed it leaves only one option, illegal 'butcher abortionists' which will lead to more death and injury. These activists really need to stop and think.

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    John Scott, I am interested whether you support making contraceptives readily and freely available as well as providing thorough sex education to ensure proper usage of contraceptives?

    -tl (in sw)

  • Das Grauen (unverified)
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    Joe, afaics nobody's blaming ALL anti abortion people. There are lots of folks among the "pro lifers" who discuss this issue in reasonable ways, and would never think of taking the law into their own hands or supporting fanatics who would go that far. But then, there is also a significant group, maybe about 5% or so, who think vigilant justice is ok when opposing abortion. This is evident in all the twitter comments expressing delight about the murder, for instance: http://carnalnation.com/content/7628/3/tweets-hate-crazy-right-twitters-about-murder-dr-tiller?page=1 Not all of them would be willing to trigger the gun themselves, sure, but helping terrorists with means, informations, and public support is still a crime. And there should be zero tolerance toward this dangerous, fanatic fringe group. Period.

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    Das Grauen,

    I completely agree on zero tolerance for anyone who aids and abets.

    But your 5% estimate is still way over the top.

    Over half the US is prolife. There is nowhere near 5% support for Roeder's actions among pro-lifers.

    The ones who do these type of things are typically loners, as Roeder was.

    btw do you support the death penalty for Roeder upon conviction for this crime?

    I would like to talk with someone who opposes the death penalty for murderers like Roeder, but supports abortion of innocent babies who have committed no crime.

  • DSS (unverified)
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    John Scott said: "When the government fails to protect innocent human beings from murder - whether they be Jews, Blacks, gays - then yes, I support vigilante justice."

    OK, here's where that argument falls flat:

    Whether or not you or I beleive that abortion is murder, the law of the land doesn't agree with that statement. Fine. Whatever. Maybe the law needs to be changed, maybe it doesn't.

    But John Scott's view of the matter -- even if it's inconsistent with the judicial interpretation -- nevertheless DEMANDS action on the part of the authorities or, failing that, vigilante justice.

    OK, fine. That's because he has strong religious convictions that he feels should be defended. So the question is... does ONLY John Scott get that priviledge or should ANYONE have that priviledge?

    Well, John Scott has already rejected the idea that he has "infallible judgment," so I assume he feels that ANYONE with a strong religious conviction should be able to demand a defense of that conviction from the government or, failing that, engage in vigilante justice... even if its inconsistent with the established jurisprudence.

    So I wonder, then, if John Scott is afraid that someone with a strong religious conviction would take issue with his commenting on blogs on the sabbath... a possible violation of Exodus 35:2. Exodus seems to say that he should be put to death. No worry though; the laws of the land certainly won't have him put to death. But maybe the failure of the government to act would justify vigilante justice?

    You see, that's the problem with vigilante justice... Whoever is the vigilante might have a very different idea of justice than you do.

  • Dave D (unverified)
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    I've seen alot of violence statistics on this post... What about 30 MM murdered infants, since Roe V Wade? What 2 MM per year these days. More than all the wars that Man has ever prosecuted - just from the US in 35 years??? Nice to see the rule of law applied so even handedly.

    Sometimes an irresponsible mother is to blame, sometimes the father (maybe even a rapist), sometimes the would be mother's parents apply pressure, sometimes society. In every abortion - the innocent PERSON, whom everyone - pro-life or pro-choice MUST agree is blameless and has done nothing wrong - dies, every time. You may not agree they are a PERSON, but they unarguably, blameless.

    I know, they can't vote. I know, they can't scream - where any of us can hear them. I know, no one can really speak for them. I know, they're not really people - everyone reading this was a fetus - every fetus (95-99%) who makes it by 3 Mos will become a person, if "medicine" doesn't intervene.

    I'm not advocating anything, I just hate to hear how moral the LEFT gets and about how fanatic the RIGHT is portrayed. Everyone forgets the victim - clue - it's not the MOTHER, she got to live at least 12 years... In most cases will live many more, maybe even repeat offend or be offended against and choose to eliminate her problem again. Can't we do anything to stop savaging the unborn?

    Sometimes when I read this kind of trash (the murder on both sides), I wish that Global Warming was more than a delusion and that we were slated for extinction. only sometimes... Just as well that it's not, and we're not. Just slated for being poorer and colder (possibly in the dark - Thanks B.O.) for the next 50-100 years in our misguided and misunderstood attempts to fix a problem that doesn't exist and can't be measured in today's policitcal climate.

    Despite that subject and this, I'm optimistic that people will improve and these barbaric days will just end up as the ignorant history that teach future generations better ideals and leads to future knowledge. I wish all of us could see 500 years into the future, then come back here and start fixing things. Go ahead, blast me for my insensitivity - I've voted Republican 4 out of the 6 Presidential Elections I've been of age for....

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    Tragic story at Military Recruiter shot by gunman

    Perhaps all the antiwar blue people should be considered accomplices in much the same way as pro-lifers are being told that they are responsible for Tiller's death.

    The hate speech from the political left has been going on for decades, including Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry who testified under oath before Congress that he witnessed atrocities committed by US servicemen, which were found never to have happened.

  • DSS (unverified)
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    Joe said: "Perhaps all the antiwar blue people should be considered accomplices"

    Get back to me when you hear a poster saying that they support that kind of "vigilante justice."

    I hope that John Scott realizes that this kind of action would be perfectly supported by his warped sense of what he calls justice. If he doesn't agree with that, then maybe he can explain the difference to us.

  • Scott (unverified)
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    Rest in peace Dr. Tiller, you are a brave man and a kind soul taken from us all by the evil that lurks in this world. To Dr. Tillers family, I hope you can find peace in this time of horrible pain.

    As a movement we need to make sure that blame is assigned both to the person who pulled the trigger as well as the advocates that make the logic of this movement possible. They are complicit in Dr. Tiller's death and must be held to legally account. Bill O'Reilly, Operation Rescue and their allies are advocates of terrorism and should be taken into custody for aiding in terrorism, tried and if convicted imprisoned for as long as the law allows.

    We should take a page from what Southern Poverty Law Center has helped do to white power groups. We must sue them for their role in criminal activities, take their assets and deprive them of their ability to work or act. When possible we must advocate for criminal charges, but in the mean time, we should also use the civil justice system to deprive them of materials and a platform.

    Salon has a great article here: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/index.html

  • LT (unverified)
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    I opposed the Vietnam War but also those who thought "peace " would come if they only blew up enough ROTC buildings.

    Posted by: Dave D | Jun 1, 2009 10:05:51 AM---are you a foster parent? Have you adopted any children?

    Do you really believe that at the moment of conception the woman's life becomes secondary but at the moment of birth the "pro-life" involvement in a child's life ends?

    That's what you sound like.

    Mark Hatfield and Hubert Humphrey were pro-life in that they opposed abortion and nuclear war and supported programs to help living Americans from children to adults.

    John Scott and Dave D seem to have an attitude of "agree with us or else" which is anti-abortion, not "pro-life".

    Interesting blog post on Washington Post's On Faith column. Find it yourself---I believe it would do some of the posters a world of good to read multiple entries on that blog.

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    Joe,

    You are an ignorant dope apparently unable to appreciate the unintended irony in your whining about "blaming the whole pro-life movement," which mostly isn't happening, followed by another grossly overgeneralized and smearing statement about "the left." Such generalizations are part of your stock-in-trade along with falsely equating "liberalism" with "socialism," "fascism" etc., a practice showing you know what none of the words mean.

    Or perhaps you do appreciate it, and it's not irony, but deliberate, baiting intellectual dishonesty.

    The fact is that there are organized right-wing groups that openly and directly applaud and encourage violence against abortion providers including murder, publish hit lists in print & on the web, etc.

    The fact is that there are no equivalent groups in the anti-war movement that advocate violence against recruiters.

    In fact, adequate support for veterans is one of the central demands of the anti-war movement in the face of Bush admin cuts to veterans services, poor coordination between the military and veterans' health systems, and slowness within the military to recognize "unmarked" injuries such as traumatic brain injury, PTSD, and complex chemical-environmental long term health injuries.

    In Portland, military recruitment centers have been the focus on non-violent civil disobedience, leading to the arrest of a small number of people, mostly members of the "Raging Grannies." More extensive counter-recruitment efforts go on, but they are not aimed at recruiters. Rather they focus on high school students and their parents, urging them to opt out of having their privacy violated by having student records and contact info turned over to the military under color of law unless they do opt out. The people involved are deeply opposed to violence.

    As for the story you cite, it says absolutely nothing about who the shooter was or any evidence as to his motivation. Last year when a guy killed people at a pro-LGBTQ rights Unitarian Church in Tennessee and left extensive documentation that was his motive, many conservatives whined that you couldn't take that seriously, he was just a pyschopath. I don't know if you personally were one of those and now personally a hypocrite. But at least you are one insofar as you accuse "the left" of ignoring its own ostensibly parallel problems but completely fail to apply the same standard to yourself or "the right."

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    Das Grauen,

    You have misunderstood me. I am suggesting that when there is a Democratic administration, some forces on the right ratchet up violent rhetoric that creates a climate that lowers the threshold of social-psychological restraint against murder and other attacks on abortion providers.

    You may be right about the Casey case enraging antis, although my memory of it is not that it went further than Roe, but rather entrenched aspects of it from a stare decisis point of view, when some on the right hoped it would overturn Roe, while accepting greater latitude for states to restrict abortion rights in various ways. I recall pro-choice groups not being happy with it either for those things.

    But my point is that after Clinton was elected, he took some other steps reducing Reagan-Bush federal anti-abortion policies. Likewise when Obama came in, he quickly moved to eliminate the "gag rule" concerning funding of medical organizations operating overseas, and to repeal the underhand "legislation by rulemaking" through which Bush II was trying to define all hormonally-based birth control as "abortion."

    I don't doubt that these actions enraged some people on the anti-abortion right. Take that perception that the administration no longer is on their side, and add in a large helping of massively distorting and outright lying hostile rhetoric (ranging from pre-election ultra-religious right arguments that Obama literally is the anti-Christ to liberals are socialists are fascists to other things, pick your favorite flavor) and it lowers the barriers to those close to the edge deciding to take matters violently into their own hands.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    John Scott and Joe White just need to be blunt: they think women's bodies are breeding machines and that men need to control them.

  • Jonathan Radmacher (unverified)
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    It continues to baffle me that "fundamentalist" Christians are so virulently anti-abortion, when the Bible says nothing about abortion; vague references to God knowing us before we're born is all there is (which, of course, would only apply to those who were born, right?).

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    Chris Lowe wrote:

    "The fact is that there are no equivalent groups in the anti-war movement that advocate violence against recruiters."

    I guess you've never heard of Pentagon bomber Bill Ayers, Obama's friend.

    Now of course the left has won control of the government and no longer need to take it over with violence since they succeeded with lies and fraud instead.

  • Joe Hill (unverified)
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    Again, I really wish there was a filter on BlueOregon that I could use to selectively not view certain posters. It doesn't feel at all useful (for me) to engage in rational discourse here with people who are avowedly anti-progressive AND demonstrably irrational.

  • Eric Parker (unverified)
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    It is interesting to note that a Man killed a Man over a woman's issue.

    Why are men involved in a womens issue anyway?.

    This always has confused me. It is a womans issue.

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    Joe White,

    As I said, you are a dope.

    The Weather Underground 35 years & more ago is an example on the left of how an atmosphere of overheated rhetoric was taken up by a few as permissive of violence -- people deluding themselves with revolutionary fantasies and justifying plans to commit violence by their characterization of their opponents.

    But, I repeat, there is no equivalent group or submovement in today's anti-war movement remotely like the violent anti-abortionists, in scale or prominence relative to them movement as a whole. Find me the anti-war website that supports attacks on recruiters -- there isn't one. Find me the left wing anti-war commentators & I mean the real socialist or even anarchist/autonomist left and not just liberals -- who are gloating over the shooting in Arkansas you report -- they don't exist.

    But, of course, the whole left spectrum is defined by the marginalized Maoists of 1970. Yup, that makes sense and sure goes to show how the right is careful about making distinctions and unfairly victimized by left-wingers lumping them all together.

  • (Show?)

    Two things you can do in response to the Tiller murder, pre Credo.

    These don't reach directly to either the family or their community, but seem worthwhile enough.

  • (Show?)

    Trying again on the link to Credo action page

  • Ms Mel Harmon (unverified)
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    John Scott,

    As much as I hate engaging someone with your views, I have to ask:

    Please give the source of your "facts" regarding Dr. Tiller's practice and what it entailed. Be specific...cite website addresses (links would be helpful), medical journals, online records, etc.

    I'm guessing your "facts" come from Fox "News", Rush Limbaugh, or some other right-wing outlet. And if you plan to quote THEIR "Facts" then first research and find out where they got those "facts". Go back to the original source and then come back here and blather about your "facts".

    In other words, John Scott, put up or shut up and go away.

  • Ms Mel Harmon (unverified)
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    RIP, Dr. Tiller. I hope that his family knows how much his work meant to all women, not just those who had reason to call upon his services. He will be missed.

  • Mitchell (unverified)
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    I believe abortion is murder and that you have to be of corrupt mind to believe that late term abortion is not murder (late term abortion happens after most babies can live outside of the mother's womb) But the fact that abortion is murder does not justify murdering Tiller. The end does not justify the means.

    It is also contrary to the teachings of Christ: "Vengence is mine" says the Lord. Jesus said to "love your enemies" and to even loan money to those who hate you. The vast majority of Christians who I know are saddened by Tiller's murder for the same reasons that I am.

  • Ned (unverified)
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    Kristen, In memory of Dr. Tiller, I am going to crush the skull of this little puppy with the heel of my boot.

    Peace On Earth (Except bush/chenney who should be tortured water boarding ok).

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    I've told this story before on BO, and I'll tell it again:

    Years ago when I was traveling in Finland, I brought up the subject of abortion with my hosts (Scandinavian countries were some of the first to offer free, safe abortions to women). I said, "many people in the US believe that abortion is murder. Are there people like that in Finland, and how do they feel about the availability and legality of abortions?"

    My hosts replied that they themselves believed that abortion was murder.

    "But you support the availability of legal, safe, and free abortions?" I countered with confusion.

    "Yes. At least with legal abortion we only risk one life," they replied.

    Those who would make abortion illegal in this country often seem to want to punish girls and women who get pregnant (regardless of the circumstances), show little regard for their welfare (health and otherwise), and moreover oppose making sex education and contraception available (proven methods for reducing unwanted pregnancy and therefore abortions). Now there may be some anti-choice folks out there that don't fit my observations, but they sure don't seem to be seen or heard in the forefront of the anti-choice movement.

    -tl (in sw)

  • Beens (unverified)
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    A baby killer gets killed! It was only a matter of time. You blame "those" right wingers for resorting to violence etc. Who is worse? The baby killer killer or the liar blaming a group of people that happen to be pro life. Get it? Pro life! Now get out of the article business. You may have put an innocent persons life at risk by lying.

  • Ms Mel Harmon (unverified)
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    tl (in sw),

    Your friends in Finland made a wise point...and so do you in your final paragraph. For many (not all, but many) pro-lifers, abortion isn't at its heart about protecting babies. If it was they'd give a damn about the babies once they were born by supporting health care and education. But with most it's "once you're born, you and your mom are on your own, kid!".

    For many, it's about trying to control women (and men). Telling them when and how they can have sex, if and when they can use birth control and forcing the women to have babies regardless of the circumstances or the situation into which the child will be born and raised.

    You're absolutely right when you say they simply want to punish those who get pregnant. And I really wish we could stop calling them Pro-Life and start calling them Anti-Choice which is what they are.

  • Ms Mel Harmon (unverified)
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    tl (in sw),

    Your friends in Finland made a wise point...and so do you in your final paragraph. For many (not all, but many) pro-lifers, abortion isn't at its heart about protecting babies. If it was they'd give a damn about the babies once they were born by supporting health care and education. But with most it's "once you're born, you and your mom are on your own, kid!".

    For many, it's about trying to control women (and men). Telling them when and how they can have sex, if and when they can use birth control and forcing the women to have babies regardless of the circumstances or the situation into which the child will be born and raised.

    You're absolutely right when you say they simply want to punish those who get pregnant. And I really wish we could stop calling them Pro-Life and start calling them Anti-Choice which is what they are.

  • Ms Mel Harmon (unverified)
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    Damn "enter" key got stuck...sorry for the double post.

  • Pedro (unverified)
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    A commandment from GOD.

    Thou shall not kill*

    *exception to the commandment: If you believe that your interpretation of the bible is superior to mine then you may take my life.

    God said it, I believe it, and that's that!

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    yeah...love that critical thinking...

  • rw (unverified)
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    I absolutely abhor the self-centered righteousness of the Right on this topic. However, my understanding is that the ONLY people in concert with this awful woman are... the AWFUL on the Right, not the [L]AWFUL who might consent when Hell freezes to actually have a conversation. THat makes them moderate...

    At any rate, the fatuous press is at least giving some airtime to concerns on the part of the Comptrollers of Women's Bodies that this horrible nutjob woman will be mistaken for one of them.

    Scan back along this thread: do you see any nutjobs frothing at the mouth up here? Them's the ones we are all afraid of, Left and Central Right alike.

  • rw (unverified)
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    Whoops mixed threads. Thinking about the news. Gak.

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    Ms. Mel Harmon:

    I recall a cartoon from about 20 years ago which had four panels. The first panel was titled "1st Trimester" and showed a pregnant woman walking past a group of protesters into a Planned Parenthood clinic. The second panel show the same woman in the 2nd trimester walking past a greater number of protesters, and the 3rd panel shows the third trimester woman nearly being tackled by the huge crowd of protesters.

    The final panel was titled "4th trimester" and showed the woman holding her baby watching as the crowd of protesters runs away from her to pursue a new pregnant target.

    Wish I could find that cartoon today.

    -tl (in sw)

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    yea, government policy by cartoon.

    It's what will make America great, right?

    Let's make all really important decisions based on cartoons.

  • anon (unverified)
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    So Joe,

    Do am interested whether you support making contraceptives readily and freely available as well as providing thorough sex education to ensure proper usage of contraceptives?

    Regardless of what you believe or what the law is, if there are unwanted pregnancies, there will be abortions.

    I've asked this question of several pro-life posters, but none has responded.

    -tl (in sw)

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    tl (in sw),

    I have no problem with contraceptives being readily available.

    Government should not have to pay for that. Condoms are inexpensive and nobody needs a government program to get them.

    Somethings that are CALLED 'contraceptive' actually destroy the newly formed child. Those aren't truly contraceptive, are they?

    Sex education (if you are referring to K-12 education thru public schools) is an area of moral teaching that government schools shouldn't be involved in.

    I would think that anyone who supports separation of church and state would agree with that.

    And we've seen the disastrous rise in unplanned pregnancies since the time government schools became involved, so the hard facts are it doesn't work anyway.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    Here's a link to a DailyKos item on Tuesday about the support network that Scott Roeder, the accused murderer, had amongst the pro-summary-execution crowd. Whoops, sorry, I meant "Pro-life".

    I love this gem from Joe White, by the way:

    Sex education (if you are referring to K-12 education thru public schools) is an area of moral teaching that government schools shouldn't be involved in.

    That's right, assuming that schools even have health classes any longer, as they did when I was in school, discussion of reproduction is strictly off-limits. Reproduction is, after all, a dark, mysterious, and fundamentally wicked topic. It is NOT a matter of human health but rather a matter of "morality". It has been ever since Eve ate the apple in the Garden of Eden.

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    Nothing 'mysterious' about it, Joel.

    But let's not kid ourselves by trying to pretend sex is a morally neutral subject.

  • joel dan walls (unverified)
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    But let's not kid ourselves by trying to pretend sex is a morally neutral subject.

    Neither is US history, unless you want to ignore small details like genocide of the aboriginal population and enslavement of Africans. However, we manage to teach classes in US history in the public schools.

  • anon (unverified)
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    Joe:

    I have no problem with contraceptives being readily available.

    Excellent! Common Ground at last! We agree!

    Government should not have to pay for that. Condoms are inexpensive and nobody needs a government program to get them.

    If condoms are so inexpensive, and since they are the only contraception which provides protection against STDs, I would argue it makes sense for the Government to pay to make them freely available. Seems like a much better use of money for prevention rather than the costly burden of treating STDs, pregnancies, welfare, or abortion.

    Somethings that are CALLED 'contraceptive' actually destroy the newly formed child. Those aren't truly contraceptive, are they?

    What "somethings" do you refer to? If you are referring to the "morning after pill", I would remind you that it prevents implantation of an egg prior to fertilization. We may disagree about when life begins, but I believe most pro-life/anti-choice folks think life begins at conception. If that is what you believe, the morning after pill does not "destroy the newly formed child". What contraceptives do you believe destroy children?

    Sex education (if you are referring to K-12 education thru public schools) is an area of moral teaching that government schools shouldn't be involved in. I would think that anyone who supports separation of church and state would agree with that.

    I disagree. Avoiding talking about sex, contraception, STDs, pregnancy, and childbirth does nothing to reduce teenage sex and pregnancies (wanted or unwanted). Same goes for abstinence-only education. Schools can and should (IMHO) offer comprehensive sex education. Morality can and should be taught at home. The two are not incompatible, IMHO.

    And we've seen the disastrous rise in unplanned pregnancies since the time government schools became involved, so the hard facts are it doesn't work anyway.

    I'll need to see some facts before I accept your premise.

    The AMA "urges schools to implement comprehensive...sexuality education programs that...include an integrated strategy for making condoms available to students and for providing both factual information and skill-building related to reproductive biology, sexual abstinence, sexual responsibility, contraceptives including condoms, alternatives in birth control, and other issues aimed at prevention of pregnancy and sexual transmission of diseases...[and] opposes the sole use of abstinence-only education..."

    http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/15/ph_sexual_health_ed.pdf

    -tl (in sw)

  • jenny (unverified)
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    It is so tragic the way Tiller died but equally tragic is the 70,000 innocent human beings were but to death at the hands of Tiller. What is wrong with our society, when we are outraged about the murder of Dr. Tiller (as we should be) but there is no outrage for those that he murdered. Doesn't all life at all stages have worth and value? We should condemn the killing of any human being- regardless of whether they are housed in a womb or in a mansion. All life is precious.

  • DaveTX (unverified)
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    The real terrorist here is Tiller.

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    Jenny,

    "What is wrong with our society, when we are outraged about the murder of Dr. Tiller (as we should be) but there is no outrage for those that he murdered."

    I disagree. You, Joe, and many others express plenty of outrage.

    Now you and your peers may be outraged that I and many others are not swayed to believe that abortion is murder. If you think you can persuade me, think how likely it is that I or anyone could shift you from your own perspective on abortion. Not too likely, is it?

    So again, I invite people to ignore the standard, entrenched, polarized positions. Give up the need and desire to convince the other side who is right on the question of abortion. Be pragmatic and reduce the situations where abortion is ever considered: reduce unwanted pregnancies.

    The way to do that is to make contraception available (free). Make comprehensive sex education available to all to ensure that the proper use of contraceptives is maximized.

    Abortion rates have declined gradually over the past couple decades, but the US still has one of the highest teen-pregnancy rates:

    ...nearly twice as high as England and Canada, eight times as high as the Netherlands and Japan

    If we can figure out with hard facts and statistics what other countries are doing to successfully reduce teen pregnancies, we can reduce abortion rates further in the US. That is something we can all agree on.

    Or we can stamp our feet, pull our hair, and bang on the wall in the hopes of convincing the "other side".

    -tl (in sw)

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    tl (in sw) wrote:

    "......the "morning after pill", I would remind you that it prevents implantation of an egg prior to fertilization...... "

    Incorrect. Unfertilized eggs don't implant.

    Fertilized eggs do.

    It prevents implantation of the newly fertilized egg.

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    tl (in sw) wrote:

    "I'll need to see some facts before I accept your premise"

    Are you the only person in the country that doesn't know that unplanned pregnancies have soared in the past few decades?

  • Joe White (unverified)
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    tl (in sw) wrote:

    "Seems like a much better use of money for prevention rather than the costly burden of treating STDs, pregnancies, welfare, or abortion."

    Liberals are good at telling you that they can spend your money better than you can.

    I would argue that government should not be responsible for medical payments for pregnancy, STD treatment or abortion either.

    'Look. Buy A, it's cheaper that B.'

    I don't want to buy A or B, thanks. If someone else wants A or B, let them pay for it.

    If they miss out on buying A, and end up paying for B, it should come from their own pocket.

    I thought liberals believed that sex was nobody's business and certainly not the government's business?

    Why do you insist on getting government intimately involved in the details of the sexual lifestyles of citizens?

    Why should government teachers be employed to teach sex and government money used in carrot-and-stick fashion?

    Leave people's sexual habits alone and away from the government. I thought that's what you wanted.

    What happened to all the liberals that used to believe that?

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    Incorrect. Unfertilized eggs don't implant. Fertilized eggs do.

    Of course you are correct. I stand corrected. However, it is unclear whether Plan B (aka "morning after pill") stops a fertilized egg from implanting, or whether it stops ovulation, or prevents the sperm and egg from meeting. See: http://health.howstuffworks.com/morning-after.htm

    Are you the only person in the country that doesn't know that unplanned pregnancies have soared in the past few decades?

    The abortion rate has fallen (see link in my prior posting to the Time article). From 1981 to 2002 the teen unplanned pregnancy rate fell from 78 to 67 per 1000. The overall rate of unplanned pregnancy dropped from 54 to 51 (see http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/national-data/pdf/Unplanned-pregnancy-rates-by-age.pdf )

    I haven't found more recent data, but this covers quite a bit of the time period during which you assert that the rates have "soared". Can you provide some data?

    I would argue that government should not be responsible for medical payments for pregnancy, STD treatment or abortion either.

    Like it or not, unplanned pregnancies cost the taxpayer, not just the mother.

    "In SFY 2000, the cost to Montana taxpayers for a mother and child on FAIM, food stamps, Medicaid, and WIC averaged $14,341 for the first year." - see http://www.plannedparenthood.org/montana/about-teen-pregnancy-mt-13258.htm

    In cold hard cash, it will cost us, everyone, much more if an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy occurs. Not making contraceptives freely available costs us all more than you think we would save (to say nothing of the impact on the individual mother, child and community).

    -tl (in sw)

  • tl (in sw) (unverified)
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    Joe, I'm hoping the fact that you haven't responded yet means that you are taking your time to find facts to back up your statements.

    I am trying to remain civil and appreciate you have with me avoided falling into name-calling, straw men arguments, and basically perpetuating the entrenched and vitriolic exchanges there have been with others on both sides of the subject.

    There is no shortage of passion on any side of this topic, but I have faith that although we may never agree on points of philosophy, morality, or religion, that we may be able to reach consensus on what can and should be done.

    I invite others on all sides of the debate to try to do the same. We cannot expect or hope to change each others' minds regarding what is murder, when life starts, etc. But can we at least try to remain civil and find practical, pragmatic solutions backed up by facts and statistics that we can agree on? Call me naive, but I think it can and should be done.

    -tl (in sw)

  • Bev Ann (unverified)
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    Joe White is right (what a coincidence...right...white...)!

    The wage of sin is death!

    This is why GLBT lifestyles will never be graced with marriage. The purpose of marriage is procreation. Why do you think our tax code subsidizes it? Because we are a Godly nation.

    "The lives of a single innocent count as 7 times 7 times the lives of the reprobate!" Not just children, but our innocent troops, selflessly defending lady liberty. Death to all that would soil the hem of her white wedding gown, the United States, the bride of Christ!

    The Brits had it right. Perfect governance = a poll tax + only land owners vote. That is what this country was built on and it will make it great again. We will defeat our enemies and prosperity will return. Not so long in the future you will be vacationing, and buying land for investment all throughout the middle east.

  • Assegai Up Jacksey (unverified)
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    Anyone that thinks Oregon/Portland is different or that there is a shred of hope, read this thread. The left will talk itself to death while the right kills you off systematically.

  • JulieJ (unverified)
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    UPDATE: Since writing this, I've learned that Dr. Tiller was the father of not one, but four children.

    Thereby demonstrating that even the best Christians are environmental terrorists. I apologize if >= 2 were adopted. I doubt it, though.

    I don't see the prob. They want to live like Jezus, I want to crucify them. Where's the prob?

  • Intergalactic Wanderer (unverified)
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    Posted by: joel dan walls | Jun 2, 2009 11:22:14 AM

    But let's not kid ourselves by trying to pretend sex is a morally neutral subject.

    YES, IT FUCKING IS, STUPID APE!!! Be a little sensitive to the various audiences that might be reading this. The ISS sent a twit, last week. This stuff goes both ways, you know. The fact is, you don't know what is at the keyboard, metaphorically speaking.

  • anon (unverified)
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    And thus ends another long thread,
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

  • rlw (unverified)
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    <h2>Bev Ann is a joker and a troll, Carla. NObody would say something like "White... right" and be real. That's a troll baiting you. Ignore it.</h2>

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