I have a son with a genetic pre-existing condition. Employer based plans under ERISA can have a pre-ex exclusion. However, the pre-ex can only be for up to 12 months and is totally offset under HIPAA by prior creditable coverage month-for-month. Under HIPAA, a lapse in coverage does not occur until 62 days without coverage.

Lifetime caps, pre-ex exclusions and even COBRA exist under the current programs out there. Federal COBRA subsidies have existed for the past 14 months off-setting all but 35% of a programs cost to the individual.

Want everyone covered without the political circus of the past year? Allow for a true universal Medicare funding fix and mandate all employers with 10+ employees provide coverage to a certain minimum level or pay a payroll tax. Add high risk pools to the 12-15 states that do not currently have them. Then, allow those un covered via other means onto Medicare. Up the medicare tax for all to cover.

Done.

Watching Rep. Slaughter on the floor is very gratiating, she is stalwart. The Republicans are beyond coherent.

It's nice to see Democrats on the floor making righteuos for a winning cause. Listening to the "Louisana Purchase" and the "Cornhusker Kickback" and threats of legal measures is begining to sound like a truly perverted rap song.

My complaint is this. Did they have to have Mrs. Slaughter's name on the Amendment. This is just to much of a rhetorical devise for the oppositon.

P.S.: The Republicans are getting rowdy, and being called to order.

Kari Quote

"force health insurance companies to take all customers"

"It's the ultimate in hypocritical"

Blue Oregon Quote- "We do, however, reserve the right to reject ads for any reason."

Your point Kari is- who is hypocritical?

The freer the people to choose the lower the cost of health insurance.

Another great freedom fighter quote

"I would like to be known as a person who is concerned about freedom and equality and justice and prosperity for all people." -- Rosa Parks

so the mandate is for the ones who have jobs who choose not to purchase the insurance?

Thank you BHO, Pelosi, and Reid. Anything else you want to mandate for me?

The Mandate in it's proposed form is a new burden on the middle class that fall short of affording their own coverage, and make to much money to qualify to the subsidy.

These 17million left out will mean that a broader pool of insured and insurance plans that do not bail on the insured when they need them most. This will be one of the many improvements that will eventually see a future of some Republican support when the see the popularity that will result with their own electorate.

I know this from years of watching how doctors, hospitals, and ancillary providers react to changes in reimbursements, procedure costs, and likely losses in the form of charged-off receivables. This is the bain of my industry, debt collections. I've been paying attention for personal preservation since 1984. I personally see some daylight and say let's go for it.

T. A. Barnhart.

Exactly, since this is so important issue than why does:

Medicare turns down more patients then private insurance.

We are attacking private insurances companies for something the government is more guilty of doing.

Was the question called hypocritical?

The poor ethics, the double standard like you helped me with, the bureaucracies, the regulation.

Lets put the people before the parties. If it's such a good policy than Obama didn't need to lie, and do tricks.

Their is some real helping solutions.

This is pure polices BS, and now for both sides.

That is why government on both sides is more often wrong than right.

Almost always the best model is let the poeple have a freer selections.

Why are we trying to hurt the poor? The ones we claim were trying to help.

Another great freedom fighter-

"There is no road to freedom, freedom is the road." -- Mohandas Gandhi

Only problem is that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Unlike states, which have plenary police power (can regulate for health, safety, and welfare), the federal government is one of enumerated powers only; there is no constitutional basis for an individual mandate to buy a product from a private vendor and every reason for the Supremes to strike down such a mandate; thus the key component of the corporate driven health care "reform" falls apart.

We should still pass this just to get the pre-existing conditions problem solved, but no one should think this is over because it's an attempt to split the baby by preserving the central role for the criminals who are at the heart of the problem, the private insurance parasites.

TR Reid's excellent book comparing US to other world systems is a must read, and when you do you realize why this is not going to work.

Only problem is that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Unlike states, which have plenary police power (can regulate for health, safety, and welfare), the federal government is one of enumerated powers only; there is no constitutional basis for an individual mandate to buy a product from a private vendor and every reason for the Supremes to strike down such a mandate; thus the key component of the corporate driven health care "reform" falls apart.

One of those enumerated powers is the power to tax. And the individual mandate is, technically, a tax.

Democrats have very good constitutional experts advising them. Nothing's impossible, but it's very, very unlikely that the Supreme Court will agree with you on this one.

rdurig: Pretzel argument?

You start arguing that SSI/Medicare applications are turned down more often than private insurance coverage. That is true, 98% of applications are declined the first time, and a appeal process that sorts through the details of applications begin, and most often approve coverage that includes attorney's fees to represent those claims.

This was a process to discourage applicants for SSI. A Republican and Blue Dog approach to reducing the effects of comprehensive coverage to voters, Democratic Voters.

Dispite the efforts to kill Medicare with amendments, and regulations that amounts to the "thousand cuts" approach, Medicare continues to be overwhelmingly popular with the voters. This is the corrupt means used by Republicans to deminish the effectiveness of government.

"there is no constitutional basis for an individual mandate to buy a product from a private vendor and every reason for the Supremes to strike down such a mandate; thus the key component of the corporate driven health care 'reform' falls apart"

Ever heard of the Commerce Clause?

Is it too much to ask that Republican members of Congress might actually engage in the policy discussion in realistic terms?

But why would they want to? The sort of substantive policy debate you'd like to see isn't the best way for Republicans to win as many seats as possible in the November elections. And, quite rationally, they want to win.

I agree with you on the policy substance (and your post is really good). But the big problem here isn't the Republicans, though; it's a system that rewards the way the Republicans are acting, and penalizes those who make nuanced policy-based arguments.

The Republicans are having a party, revise and constent, ya, ya, ya.....

The Konga line Republican style for this "Flawed Healthcare Bill, ya, ya, ya...."

Of course the flaw was really their election to public office, but this is a start to changing that.

Yes health care is more important that a any political blog.

But those living in glass houses, shouldn't throw rocks.

This topic is about hypocritical, I could find endless double standard, both parties live in it.

We need to do what right for the people not the party. The freer the selection the better the system.

To me this is the largest hypocritical quote-

"So let me set the record straight here. My guiding principle is, and always has been, that consumers do better when there is choice and competition." -Barack Obama

Yea right!!!!

The CBO Report on this bill has shown that passing of this bill will make it the largest deficit reduction passed in our history while insuring 31 million uninsured Americans.

So, flap in the wind on that.

Did you all hear that? Bam, Bam, Bam, went the hammer on the last nail in this bill, Rep Stupak has announced his support, and put's this on track.

Tim, Many conservtives like me see this as a super demonstration of ultra stupidity.

How stupid are progressives to think that 1/2 $Trillion can be "saved" from the severly unfunded and over comitted Medicare in oreder to fund this new entitlement?

Are you so stupid that you think CBO found the savings?

Or are you so thoroughly daft that you don't think it matters?

And the 1/2 $Trillion in tax increases will be easy and have no adverse effects?

This is a deficit reduction bill?

Really?

Really!

That you can make insults, and slurs in replace of fact, changes nothing.

The CBO was oracle in their predictions of Medicare Part D, and Buch Tax Cuts that "The Hammer" hammered through with historical arm twisting that he was sanctioned for by the Ethics Committee. The CBO predicted the record deficits that the Republicans scofted at the very same way they are on the Health Care Reform Bill's savings.

You are consistantly wrong as usual. Just like the tax cuts, Medicare Part D, and the Iraqi War. Might you come in out of the dark, accept the reality the 98% of us live in and stand with the Americans in their time of great need.

Oh, by the way, Bam, Bam, Bam, the debate starts and there goes Speaker Pelosi's Silver Hammer upon the Republican's head......

Kari, first you just admitted you are typical of your ignorant generation. Flipping back and forth between sports and the Congress. That right there renders your personal credibility zero.

But the fact you actually state this non-sequitor without any apparent awareness of who you are actually insulting is downright amazing:

The Republicans who claim they support ending pre-existing conditions but oppose the individual mandate are talking gibberish. They're not seriously engaging the policy.

So if someone supports ending pre-existing conditions, which we do with a Medicare buy-in that doesn't leave 23 million uninsured and charge everybody else 30%-40% more for less and poorer access to medical care then this plan based on a cratered patchwork of private insurance, but oppose a Democratic ripoff of all Americans in the form of a corrupt permanent welfare check for the insurance industry that is all the mandate actually represents, does that make him or her a Republican, or not seriously engaging the policy, or both?

The Oregon and national Democratic Party is in for a very rough 2010 and 2012 election cycle because of this corrupt bill and insulting, ignorant, supporters like you who trash the very base needed to win.

How do you get $1/2 Trillion in savings from Medicare when Medicare is a $57 Trillion unfunded liability?

Easy, just distract people with sad stories about using other people's dentures.

The Oregon and national Democratic Party is in for a very rough 2010 and 2012 election cycle because of this corrupt bill and insulting, ignorant, supporters like you who trash the very base needed to win.////

This is March. In September, October, and then November the "sky is falling" scenario will be as laughable as it should have always been. The Republicans will flood the airways with slogans, and slurs. The Republican voters will stay home in discust, and Democrats will get the vote out.

So, you heard it here, in my own name, Democrats will carry the day come November 2010 and 2012.

This is the final few inches left on the string that was the anti-government crowd arguing that they should run government.

This is the election that America gets it. Republicans only preach small government, they deliver huge, and ineffective governance. Corrupt, incompetant governance should be expected when handing over power to somebody who reviles the chore to begin with.

And here's a few policy details for trashy fools like Kari and Tim:

1) To get Stupak's vote, MSNBC is reporting Obama outdid himself by issuing an Executive Order that makes Hyde permanent and generalizes it so that it affects public health clinics that receive any Federal funding regardless of funding firewalls. The reporting is this appears to mean that he and the Democratic leadership have now thrown organizations that operate any kind of public health program funded by federal dollars, like Planned Parenthood, under the bus because they are so pathologically desperate for a personal win

Real nice the kind of people and policies you cheer for Kari and Tim.

2) And in as far as screwing Oregon too. Turns out the House either doesn't have or isn't releasing the CBO scoring on the deal DeFazio MAY have worked out, or how it will be funded. And it's in a Manager's Amendment that, while it probably will be attached to the Reconciliation bill (and may have by this time), the Senate DEMOCRATIC leadership hasn't actually said they have the votes to stop the Senate from stripping out provisions of a reconciliation which adversely affects the CBO scoring. They've only said they MAY have the votes to pass a reconciliation bill whose CBO scoring is equal to the CBO scoring of the Senate bill.

Assuming the Senate (which even in Democratic hands has blocked Medicare equalization for 40 years) even agrees to pass any Reconciliation bill, if they amend it to strip out the Medicare equalization because the CBO scoring is adverse, it goes back to the House. Are you Kari and Tim going to cheer on screwing Oregon if that happens, like most of you did 48 hours ago when DeFazio wasn't on board because he was fighting for this.

No Kari (and jerkwad Tim), those of us who know far more about the policy then punks like you know exactly why this is a very bad bill. And why, although it is bad for everyone, it is especially bad for poor and working people those who have taken over the Democratic Party since Clinton have decided are a political liability, and good propagandistic photo-op from time-to-time, rather than the people they really want to represent.

Thanks for the comment Tim. 1) Yes It will pass.

Your quote-

"The CBO Report on this bill has shown that passing of this bill will make it the largest deficit reduction passed in our history".

Again if your in private business and say your profitable and give a documented report to back it up, (but off balance's sheet you cooked books) and your actually loosing money, you go to jail, and should! If you cook the books and lie to personally gain, you go to jail for a much longer time period.

Obama plan did not include the additional $208 billion for participate in Medicare. He moved that into a separate bill to reduce the apparent cost of the main health care bill. It's a CBO fact, he did both reports independently, but showed only the one. He cooked the CBO numbers.

Using both numbers properly and ethically it is at least a 58 billion dollars deficit. That's not the main problem!

The real issues here is he is both hiding and denying the real truth. He went in front of TV and saying:

Obama two quotes yesterday-

"I will not sign it if it adds one dime to the deficit, now or in the future, period."

" The plan will not add to our deficit."

Obama is lying, that's the issue now with me, what's worse, he liying to gain a advantage, to help you and others like you, to follow his cause. And now your quote "the largest deficit reduction passed in our history"

I wanted to support Obama, I adopted (what some consider)a blank girl from a third world country. I have told her when Obama was elected this could be really special for her, to open great doors for her of racism, and I wanted to beleive it myself.

But now I beleive Obama actually lies and breaks rules more than Bush and Chaney with their WMD spin, which was also very obviously, crap at the time.

I'm afraid Obama maybe close to Nixon's level of untruth and that really scares me when I also know he is the most powerful man, my commander and chief, and very powerful people behind him will follow their leader, and even give them great power, even when they know the path to get their their power is ethically very wrong.

Sorry this is just my beleive. I hope I'm wrong.

The more freedoms you and I have the higher the standard living of the poor. Government can't help but to go the wrong way with their own wrong reason to gain power!!!

some older quotes-

I would like to quote a great freedom fighter "We must not allow ourselves to become like the system we oppose. We cannot afford to use methods of which we will be ashamed when we look back, when we say, '...we shouldn't have done that.' We must remember, my friends, that we have been given a wonderful cause. The cause of freedom! And you and I must be those who will walk with heads held high. We will say, 'We used methods that can stand the harsh scrutiny of history.' -- Archbishop Desmond Tutu

I would like to quote one of the world worst people-

The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. -Adolph Hitler

This is March. In September, October, and then November the "sky is falling" scenario will be as laughable as it should have always been.

Well, at least we see just exactly how elitist condescending jerks like "Tim" think, especially even about fellow Democrats. Apparently there is no understanding that with this bill the Democratic leadership has offended the values of a lot of Democrats who would support an mandate if they had the alternative of a Medicare buy-in. That's because for those people, like myself, that would not be a mandate, but an opportunity to help strengthen a system which doesn't create winners and losers (the biggest losers being the 23 million this bill leaves uninsured), as well as provide the funding to buy more and better health care for everyone.

Instead the mandate is just a coercive affront to their values which forces them to fund a welfare check for the corrupt private health insurance industry. And the corrupt for-profit hospital industry and pharma whose cost increases that the law treats as a expense that can be passed on through premiums.

Maybe Tim, and I'll bet Kari since he can speak up for himself if he disagrees, just don't give a rip about the values of those who might expose their behavior and attitudes.

Or maybe they just don't even think those of us the view as in the lower castes they look down their self-centered, elitist noses at, along with the corrupted Democratic leadership that has shaped this bill from the get-go (most notably Ron Wyden who has held this view going on 4 years in his own health care bills), are even capable of having respectable, heartfelt values like those at their station of life do.

Based on the comments of a lot of people here, including Tim's and Kari's, I suspect the latter is actually the case.

In that last comment, that first line:

This is March. In September, October, and then November the "sky is falling" scenario will be as laughable as it should have always been.

was quoting "Tim" at Mar 21, 2010 3:52:58 PM. That should help clarify the rest of the comment.

And Kari;

Mr. Oh Really: No, I'm not saying that EVERYONE who opposes the individual mandate and supports the end of pre-ex is a Republican.

People just have to read the comments you and others here have made over the course of this whole health care debate, including attacks several made in the last 48 hours on DeFazio, to see exactly what you and they think of anyone who isn't on the bus for being on the bus'es sake of Democrats winning.

In one incredible example of dishonest rhetoric the other day, Speaker Pelosi tried to whip up the masses by raising her voice and claiming that she's fighting the big bad insurance companies who are "against' this bill (!), failing to mention that they are very much in support of it. As usual, Blues cheered because they have such a shallow understanding of their own favorite party.

Bob Tiernan Portland

Only problem is that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Unlike states, which have plenary police power (can regulate for health, safety, and welfare), the federal government is one of enumerated powers only; there is no constitutional basis for an individual mandate to buy a product from a private vendor and every reason for the Supremes to strike down such a mandate; thus the key component of the corporate driven health care "reform" falls apart. One of those enumerated powers is the power to tax. And the individual mandate is, technically, a tax. Democrats have very good constitutional experts advising them. Nothing's impossible, but it's very, very unlikely that the Supreme Court will agree with you on this one.

Oh, please. Are you so committed to preserving the rights of insurance corporations to profit that you can't even distinguish between a tax, money paid over to government to fund government activities, and tribute, money paid by the poor to the rulers?

If you want a better chance to convince me, find me one prior example of a mandatory purchase imposed by the federal government. Even the census form comes in a business reply envelope.

"there is no constitutional basis for an individual mandate to buy a product from a private vendor and every reason for the Supremes to strike down such a mandate; thus the key component of the corporate driven health care 'reform' falls apart" Ever heard of the Commerce Clause?

I have, and have read the Congressional Research Service report that delves into the commerce clause argument vis a vis a must-buy mandate. The argument is entirely unconvincing, even with its hesitant qualified conclusion that a mandate might not be struck down.

Only in Orwell's world does the authority to regulate interstate commerce extend to the right to regulate people who decline to participate in commerce. No one questions Congress's authority to regulate insurance companies; the huge leap is the idea that the constitution somehow provides Congress with a way to dragoon the unwilling to force them to pay tribute to corporate parasites who profit from denying people access to health care.

There's a simple solution: a single payer system, Medicare for All. Clearly constitutional, much cheaper, more effective, universal coverage. But no, the Democrats are too busy kissing corporate ass.

rdurig: You seem intent on making the President a liar. You are unswayed by facts, or reality. For this reason, I'm done addressing your comments.

O'Really? : I'm firmly in favor of a Medicare E option, a Medicare buy-in for all.

The mandate will put us on that path as a cost reduction nessesity. I firmly believe this, and history has supported this kind of evolution of these types of legislation.

One more time for the mis-informed. This legislation, though not what I wanted, is the largest deficit reduction legislation in American History.

P.S.: rdurig's comments seems eerily like those of the man who shot those police officers in D.C. resently.

Oh, Really!

Do you recall that we stil live in an American Constitutional Democratic Republic.

That means compromise. Or, is the Republican goose stepping legislation like the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, Iraqi War Resolution, Bush Tax Cuts, Medicare Part D, to mention just a few historic blunders we live with today!

If you can't stand to watch the sausage being made, then don't watch, or don't eat.

Tim your quote

"rdurig: You seem intent on making the President a liar. You are unswayed by facts, or reality. For this reason, I'm done addressing your comments."

Yes, I want the world to know when things of this magnitude are done in a very ethical way.

What facts? What reality? You provided none, your talking rubbish.

Thanks for the chat.

Another great freedom fighter quote- “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” -Abraham Lincoln

sorry for the typo I wanted to say "UNETHICAL" way, my dyslexia got me again.

I just want to say thanks. Thanks for increasing my cost of living because I am not in a union. Thanks for taxing my current health care plan because you think it is unfair that others don't have it. Thanks for trampling all over my constitutional rights.

I guess citizenship is a subscription now.
f*** washington, democrats and republicans. btw, the whole crazy republicans, stupid liberals argument is getting a little old. why don't the citizens reunite and vote people into office that care what their constituents think.

Worth a visit. i since he can speak up for himself if he disagrees, just don't give a rip about the values of those who might expose their behavior and attitudes.

Kari points up the problem nicely. No rational, logical, consistent behavior seems to be possible. Look at the responses.

Hey, Rdurig. Could you try to justify, just a tad, some of my support for your right to be respected? Or are you Carla's troll sock puppet?

There's a simple solution: a single payer system, Medicare for All. Clearly constitutional, much cheaper, more effective, universal coverage. But no, the Democrats are too busy kissing corporate ass.

Although Congress's ability to regulate commercial inactivity is an open constitutional question, I don't think this point is debateable.